Sidney Cooper, regimental numbers

[Mema]

My grandfather Sidney A. Cooper was in the Welsh Regt. #4164 enlistment year 1902 U.K. Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records. Then registration date of March 12 1920 in Canada Joseph, Ontario 121 Rifale Brigade #9370 and was wondering does he get a pension from both and how much. He passed away in 1956. What and where did he go and do? 

 

 

 

[PRC]

Hi @Mema and welcome to the forum

I had hoped someone with subscription access to the document I think you are talking about and could give you specific answers would have got in first! I don't have access so will have to be a bit more general - apologies if this is stuff you already know.

A typical British Army infantry regiment pre-Great War would be made up of three types of units.

 - Regular Army Battalions, made up of full time soldiers. These would have signed up for 12 years or longer. The 12 year men would spend part of their time in the "Colours", (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full pay, board & lodging, clothing and healthcare) and the rest in the "Reserves", (back in civilian life, receiving half pay and access to healthcare, subject to military discipline only when attending refresher training but liable for immediate recall in the event of a national emergency such as war). A typical County Regiment usually had two such Battalions, but this could vary.

 - Militia Battalions, (from April 1908 the Special Reserve). The recruits would spend an initial period of full time training, (I believe 49 days for the militia \ 6 months for the Special Reserve), and then return to civilian life. They would serve for a total of six years, attending annual camps for which they received payment. As the Militia they were not formally part of the Army , but reported to the monarchs representative for the County, the Lord Lieutenant, who could call them out to supplement the local police force. Only with the creation of the Special Reserve did the War Office take over funding them and integrating them into the Regular Army.

 - Volunteer Battalions, (from April 1908, the Territoral Force). These men attended training one evening a week plus at least one week of an annual camp.

Reason fro mentioning this is that soldiers didn't have just the one service number that stayed with them throughout their career until 1920. As individual soldiers not only moved between Regiments but even between Battalions their Regimental service number could change.

This can be very helpful. We know for instance that the Regular Army Battalions of the Welsh Regiment would not have issued Regiment Service number 4164 in 1902 - that would have been issued back in 1893/94. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/12/welsh-regiment-1st-and-2nd-battalions.html

And he wasn't a Militia man either - 4164 wasn't issued until 1905 and that was to an Ernest George Hillman - surviving pre-war service record on FindMyPast and Genes Reunited.

But the Rifle Brigade, (actually a Regiment), did issue service number 9370 in 1902. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/09/rifle-brigade-regular-battalions.html

I see there are surviving records for him. Hopefully you are aware the the majority of Great War era other ranks service records went up in flames in WW2 when German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they were stored.

FindMyPast have catalogued what they have for Sidney as a service record. Ancestry appear to have them as pension records. familysearch don't have the records online but they also show them as a service record. It will consist of the burnt fragments found after the fire. It is only indexed under the Rifle Brigade Service number. Additionally familysearch then reference pre-war Chelsea Pensions service records for a "1 month old" Sidney Arthur Cooper 7164 Welsh Regiment.

That brings up surviving pre-war service records for a Sidney Arthur Cooper, aged 18 years and 1 months who attested for service in the Regular Army at Swansea on the 1st July 1902. He enlisted for 12 years, split 3 years in the Colours and 9 in the Reserves. He was a Fisherman born St. Peter's, Cheltenham, Gloucesteshire. He was described as 5 feet 4 and three quarter inches tall, with a dark complexion, grey eyes and dark brown hair. He had a scar on the bridge of his nose and two on his chin. He weighed 120lbs. He was reclaimed as an Apprentice by his Master on the 31st July 1901 and discharged.

When calculating any disability pension for him at a later date, the pensions office would have also checked to see if he had any entitlement to a long service pension - so those 31 days would have been added in, but otherwise did not lead to a separate pension for him.

The service records for his time with the Rifle Brigade look like they end in 1915. There are also pension ledger cards for him, salvaged from the Ministry of Pensions. Transcripts of the pension cards are available on Ancestry, while images of the actual documents are available on Ancestrys' US sister site Fold3. Perhaps a forum pal like @Matlock1418 can take a sneak peak and let you know if there is anything worth subscribing for - or at least taking a free trial if you haven't already done so.

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

[George Rayner]

13 hours ago, Mema said:

Welsh Regt. #4164 enlistment year 1902

Looking at those forms in Ancestry it appears he only served 31 days in the regiment as he was 'claimed' back by his employer as he was an apprentice. His attestation form lists him as a 'fisherman' though so I suspect a little bit of imagination in that statement.

George

[George Rayner]

It appears to be quite an interesting piece to research...

Sidney/Sydney's original form for Welsh Regiment #4146 shows initial signing on date of July 1902 (courtesy Fold3/Ancestry)

 

Second form in Canada dated Rifle Brigade #9370 shows date of October 1902 with arrival in UK September 1914 (courtesy Ancestry)

This second form shows a war gratuity of £400 total paid to Cooper's wife in 1920 although he lived into the 1950's

And I love this phrase...

To find what he 'did' you need to track 1st Rifle Brigade in France from September 1914 to October 1915 when it appears 'expiration of contract' occurs and presumably he returned to Canada

George

[George Rayner]

The more I look at the records the more perplexed I become...for example

Sidney-1902-signs on with Welsh Regiment

Sydney-1902-signs on with 1st Rifle Brigade in  Canada

1910 marries in UK (Annie Wilson?)

1912 returns to Canada(?)

Expert eyes on genealogy and records needed! Not to mention WW1 service-was it Welsh Regiment (unlikely) Rifle Brigade (UK 9370) or 1st Rifle Brigade (Canada 9370)

George

Edited 15 May , 2024 by George Rayner

[Matlock1418]

On 14/05/2024 at 17:03, Mema said:

My grandfather Sidney A. Cooper

Mema, welcome to GWF.

17 hours ago, PRC said:

Perhaps a forum pal like @Matlock1418 can take a sneak peak and let you know

Thanks Peter, you have encouraged me out of my hidey hole!   No problem at all.  I had earlier had a look around. The word "pensions" in the OP had certainly earlier caught my eye, but like you without access to the documents that appeared to be being referred to, I too was holding back a bit.

I was/am rather hoping to see a Medical Board document or one that specifically referred to Pensions in some form in order to help with my only, but rather perplexing, finding at WFA/Fold3 - so far I have only found a single pension index card for what appears to be an unspecified disability claim by Sidney/Sydney Arthur COOPER, 9370, Rifle Brigade

Image thanks to WFA.Fold3

The reason I say this is a perplexing card is because of a number of things:

• Primarily because the first thing that caught my eye was that it looks like a Rejection card - the stamped 151095 is typical of a rejected claim [more typically placed at the top centre of a card but I do not think its position alters its identity]
• Secondly because there is a reference of 19.10.15 which is likely to be date of discharge and MQD6143, which is fairly typical of a successful claim  ... So which was it? Possibly both?? [Though a rejection reference was not normally be used if a claim was considered to have come to an end - had he made a second claim??]
• The reference to Transfers Abroad (Shell) Dead File is puzzling in that a Shell file was, in my opinion, a dummy/empty/temporary holding file for a file from/to the Overseas section of the MoP ... So what had happened to any main contents, if any? - later referred to as a Dead File [i.e. a unsuccessful/ ended/dead claim file and not necessarily for a dead man]
• The P.A. 3.11.24 in the same main hand-writing suggests this card was completed in 1924 - PA commonly being suggested meaning Put Away [though I have had a few reservations about PA in this case I think it is probably unlike to reflect a possible alternative interpretation as Pension Awards section]
• The fact that it is on a plain card without any printer's marks etc. is unhelpful, but that is as it is.

So there you are ... rather unhelpful on its own.

As a point of note a disability pension was only awarded, and only continued to be paid, if there was a current and on-going disability [wound/injury/disease] attributed to, or aggravated by, military service [a fully recovered condition would not elicit any award or a continuing award].  A valid claim could/would be ended by recovery using a final time-bound award or a one-off final gratuity.   I have not yet seen any reference to such, if any record still exists ... I would be pleased to so see any such a referenced condition(s) or situation [at any stage].  Once a claim was considered dead the majority of such files were then deliberately destroyed so I have not found such a file, nor, as might be more possible, any related pension ledger page [there is no reference to such a PLP reference on the PIC - that sort of reference might have been expected if there had been a successful claim/award].

I await with interest.

M

Edited 15 May , 2024 by Matlock1418
the usual - typos

[George Rayner]

In the Canadian documents there is nothing to suggest a medical issue. It appears to be just a war gratuity payable to the wife.

George

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

In the Canadian documents there is nothing to suggest a medical issue. It appears to be just a war gratuity payable to the wife.

Thanks for looking = a shame, doesn't clear things up does it?

Puzzling that a War Gratuity would be paid to his wife [that Verification document above is stamped 1927] = ???

M

Edited 15 May , 2024 by Matlock1418
typo

[PRC]

3 hours ago, George Rayner said:

The more I look at the records the more perplexed I become...for example

Sidney-1902-signs on with Welsh Regiment

Sydney-1902-signs on with 1st Rifle Brigade in  Canada

1910 marries in UK (Annie Wilson?)

1912 returns to Canada(?)

31 days with the Welsh Regiment and then reclaimed by his Master to whom he was bonded as an Apprentice. Thus ends that part of his military service and lucky the Army was lenient as he has made a mis-statement on his attestion which could all too often lead to Hard Labour in a civil prison and discharge with ignominy.

Enlists in the UK on the 30th October 1902 in the Rifle Brigade. At a minimum that would be for 12 years, and the standard enlistment terms of the time would be 3 in the colours and 9 in the reserves. That would seem to tie up with the 1905 date, although released slightly early and with permission to reside in Canada given at some point.

I could be wrong but there is a likely match for a married fisherman Sydney Arthur Cooper, aged 26 and born Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, who was recorded as a visitor at 12 Long View, Blaenllacheu, Rhondda, Glamorganshire on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. His wife of  one year was the 23 year old Annie Cooper, born Hull.

Sidney \ Sydney would have been liable to serve until the 29th October 1914, so when Britain joins the Great War in August 1914 he would have been mobilised for service with the Rifle Brigade. As Britain was at war the terms of enlistment meant the Army could keep him for up to another 12 months unless the war ended sooner. So come the 29th October 1915 he has the opportunity to walk away from the Army with no obligation to serve any longer - and like a significant minority he takes that opportunitiy to leave.

So unless he made a later claim, no grounds for a pension based on disability or long service.

Cheers,
Peter

[Allan1892]

Just now, PRC said:

could be wrong but there is a likely match for a married fisherman Sydney Arthur Cooper, aged 26 and born Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, who was recorded as a visitor at 12 Long View, Blaenllacheu, Rhondda, Glamorganshire on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. His wife of  one year was the 23 year old Annie Cooper, born Hull.

Just found that myself Peter and was about to post.

He enlisted into the Rifle Brigade, #9370 -- attestation attached along with his service history. The service history mentions a civil conviction, details also attached. He was also dismeiised from his employment with the GWR (all images courtesy of Ancestry)

[George Rayner]

1921 Census of Canada-Sydney Arthur Cooper- arrives Canada 1902. Wife Annie also on census…

Different man? Or …

Edited 15 May , 2024 by George Rayner

[PRC]

13 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

1921 Census of Canada-Sydney Arthur Cooper- arrives Canada 1902. Wife Annie also on census…

Different man? Or …

Suspect that should be 1912 - ties in with the date eldest son George, 9, is seen as arriving in Canada and also date permission was given for Sydney to reside in Canada according to the entry in his statement of services. The family were living in Ontario. https://recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/Home/Search?DataSource=Genealogy|Census&ApplicationCode=137&YearOfImmigration-slider=0&FirstName=Annie&LastName=Cooper&Age-slider=0&YearOfBirth=1886-1890&YearOfBirth-slider=2&

familysearch has a pasenger list for the SS Metagama which sailed from Liverpool on the 5th November 1915 and landed at Quebec on November 14th 1915 which includes a page of "Returning British Reservists". That page includes a 31 year old married man, Sydney A Cooper, whose destination was Toronto, Ontario. He states he had last been in Canada in 1914, living at Toronto and had resided there for 4 years. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HG2-WJ9

Suspect that length of residence should be taken with a pinch of salt!

Cheers,
Peter

[George Rayner]

This reference within the Canadian Pension Form refers to UK Rifle Brigade...?

 

George

 

[George Rayner]

Yet this implies that he was already resident in Canada

unless UK Army gave permission for him to move to Canada as he was in the reserves?

George

 

[Allan1892]

3 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

This reference within the Canadian Pension Form refers to UK Rifle Brigade...?

I would say yes -- his service history for the UK Rifle Brigade shows a stamp with Winchester on it (image courtesy of Ancestry)

[George Rayner]

Yet this implies that he was already resident in Canada

unless UK Army gave permission for him to move to Canada as he was in the reserves?

George

 

[George Rayner]

Timeline looks like?

1902-#4164 attested but claimed back by employer as he was apprenticed

1902 October to February 1905-#9370 attested and served in Rifle Brigade

1905 in Reserves but emigrated to Canada (probably 1912)

1914 recalled to the Colours

1915-discharged time expired and returns to Canada

Does that hold water?

George

 

[Allan1892]

He was definitely in the UK on the 25th August 1910 as he married Annie Wilson at St Barnabas Church, Hull. He was also in court in March 1911 as well as appearing with his wife on the 1911 Census -- they were recorded as visitors at 12 Long View, Blaenllacheu, Rhondda, Glamorganshire.

[George Rayner]

I was wondering why his MIC only showed two medals which I thought should be three as he was in France from 1914.

This appears to be him under J Cooper

George

[George Rayner]

A second MIC (Ancestry)

George

[George Rayner]

Ancestry

George

[George Rayner]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Medical Board document or one that specifically referred to Pensions in some form

Within his documentation is reference to a claim for pension as a result of amputation of a thumb-rejected.

And also reference to GSW thigh and amputation without specifically referring to thigh

George

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

Within his documentation is reference to a claim for pension as a result of amputation of a thumb-rejected.

And also reference to GSW thigh and amputation without specifically referring to thigh

I would be interested to please see / learn more about these entries.

M

[George Rayner]

Will do...currently potting on seedlings

George

[Matlock1418]

33 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Will do...currently potting on seedlings

Thanks - More power to your dibber.

M