Montgomeryshire Yeomanry Cavalry Lt Colonel portrait pic

[Jerry B]

A recent buy, a sharp image of a LT Col with his MYC OSD badges, sadly his name is not yet known

Edited 14 May , 2024 by Jerry B

[RNCVR]

@Jerry B   The LtCol might be wearing the 1914 or 1914-15 star in this excellent photo.

[PRC]

Could that be a Distinguished Service Order ribbon he is wearing?

Image courtesy Wikipedia

It's only a starting point but the December 1918 British Army Monthly Lists shows the Lieutenant Colonels of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry was an R.W.H.W. William-Wynn D.S.O. with seniority from pre-war, a Brevet Colonel and an Honorary Captain in the Army from 1901; and G.H. Mytton, also a brevet Colonel although in his case from June 1918. Neither is shown in command of a specific unit. None of the Majors & Captains are shown as acting Lieutenant Colonels. (Column 392)https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103431368

MiC for Robert William Herbert Watkin Williams-Wynn shows him first landing in Egypt on the 9th March 1917 with the 1/1st Montgomeryshire Yeomanry and going on to serve as a Colonel with the Southern Sector, E.E.F.

Described as Sir Robert William Herbert Williams-Wynn on The Peerage site which details connection to the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry in the Great War, that man was born in 1862, so seems unlikely to be the nystery man pictured here. http://www.thepeerage.com/p61049.htm#i610481

There is no obvious MiC for G.H. Mytton, and no entry in the National Archive catalogue for a Mytton serving with the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry - but there is an officers personal file for a Lieutenant Colonel George Herbert Mytton who was on the General List. I'm not seeing anything to suggest overseas service during the Great War era.

Penny drop moment - of course by then the 1/1st had become part of the 25th (Montgomery & Welsh Horse Yeomanry) Battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in March 1917. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/montgomeryshire-yeomanry/

The March 1917 British Army Monthly List has Williams-Wynn in command of the 1/1st and Mytton in charge of the 2/1st. But it also shows Major W.M. Dugdale as acting Lieutenant Colonel with the 1/1st effective 25th October 1916. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119980099

There is a MiC for a William Marshall Dugdale, D.S.O, Major, Montgomeryshire Yeomanry and Acting Lieutenant-Colonel, Royal Welsh Fusiliers. He had first landed in Egypt in March 1916.

There is a low-grade image of "Major Marshall Dugdale" here - in the grounds of the estate he was recorded as farming on the 1911 Census, https://llanfyllinshow.co.uk/wordpress/?page_id=98

There is a picture from www peoplescollection wales that shows two army officers - a Captain William M. Evans D.S.O. and a Major W.M. Dugdale D.S.O. showing the Mayor, John Lomax of Llwyn presenting Freedom of the Borough in October 1918. It doesn't say which was which, and so while the natural tendency is to view it as that way round, actually the officer on the left as we look at it bears a passing resemblance to our mystery Lieutenant-Colonel.

Image courtesy https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/467890#?xywh=-309%2C-1%2C2117%2C1284

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

William Marshall Dugdale was first commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry Cavalry on 19 March 1900.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27177/page/2047

It looks as though his DSO was awarded while serving with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers on 1 January 1918 as part of the New Year's Honours for that year, so there is no citation. It would, however, date the photograph to 1918 or later if he is wearing his DSO ribbon.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13186/page/26

Edited 14 May , 2024 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

39 minutes ago, PRC said:

There is no obvious MiC for G.H. Mytton, and no entry in the National Archive catalogue for a Mytton serving with the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry - but there is an officers personal file for a Lieutenant Colonel George Herbert Mytton who was on the General List. I'm not seeing anything to suggest overseas service during the Great War era.

George Herbert Mytton was first commissioned with the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry Cavalry 12 days before William Marshall Dugdale, on 7 March 1900.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27171/page/1533

This webpage page suggests, however, that he was born in 1873, which means that he would have been in his mid 40's during WW1 and on first appearances too old to be the man in the photo.

https://www.saxonlodge.net/getperson.php?personID=I2834&tree=Tatham

On the balance of probabilities I'd suggest that Peter has identified the correct man, William Marshall Dugdale.

[PRC]

Given the way that some forms of black & white film processing can lighten reds and darken blues, (if I've understood it correctly), then possibly the officer on the left in the October 1918 picture, as we look at it, is wearing the DSO while the officer on the right is wearing the Military Cross - making the caption incorrect.

And with the end of the war the 25th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers is likely to have been rapidly disbanded, returning William in all likelihood to the establishment of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry, allowing him for a  short period of 1919 to wear that Regiments insignia and the DSO ribbon, but before permission to wear the later service medal ribbons (British War Medal \ Victory Medal), was granted

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

52 minutes ago, PRC said:

Given the way that some forms of black & white film processing can lighten reds and darken blues, (if I've understood it correctly),

The other way round Peter.
Orthochromatic film wasn't sensitive to red, which was convenient as it could be processed under a red safe light.
This meant that in processing, red exposed areas were washed away, leaving a blank space on the negative. White light exposed areas turned the emulsion black. Such films were sensitive to blues and greens, yellows less so.
But then of couse, the negative was used to make a print where the same principle applied in reverse.
The blank areas on the negative transmitted all light, rendering the print paper black on processing.
Thus reas exposed to red light in the original negative would be clear, but  would appear black or dark in the print after processing.
Areas exposed to blue on the negative would turn dark, and in the final print would appear pale.

See this famous image of a Union Jack filmed on orthochromatic film at the South Pole, blue is pale, red is dark.

 

If this officer's image was captured on orthochromatic film, then the sequence of colours might be red (or yellow), blue or green, red (or yellow).
I'm not an expert on medal ribbons, so I'd say the image was captured on panchromatic film (which is sensitive to red), and the sequence is blue-red-blue.

 

[PRC]

25 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The other way round Peter.

It seems like I've remembered black as white again  - I swear one day I will get my head round this

So if the DSO ribbon looks like this

And the Military Cross Ribbon looks this

And assuming that the medal ribbon hues are rendered identically on the October 1918 picture - first of all is it safe to say the two officers are not wearing the same type of medal ribbons?

Is it possible either are wearing the D.S.O.? (The caption to the photograph says they both are).

Cheers,
Peter

[johntaylor]

The regimental history was compiled by Colonel R. W. Williams Wynn, C.B., D.S.O. - unfortunately I don't have a copy but this may contain more clues. It apparently contains nearly 40 photos so there may well be one of him as the CO. The full name of the book is The Historical Records of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry With a Short Account of the Service in Palestine and France of the 25th Montgomeryshire and Welsh Horse Yeomanry Battalion R.W.F. 1909-1919 Vol. II. It was published by the Carlton Press, Oswestry in 1926.

I'm sure someone on the Forum will have a copy.

All the best, John

[max7474]

That is not him. This is the author Robert.

[max7474]

Major Dugdale ended the war as a Major and was not the CO of the RWF Bn so t may not be him either.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

Major Dugdale ended the war as a Major and was not the CO of the RWF Bn so t may not be him either.

As posted above - the British Army Monthly List for March 1917 shows him as Acting Lieutenant Colonel of the 1/1st since October 1916, and his MiC shows him as an Acting Lieutenant Colonel, Royal West Fusiliers. MiC could be interpreted possibly that the Acting Lieutenant-Colonel doesn't relate to his time with the RWF, as it's not on the same line, but his officers file would need to be checked.

Image courtesy Ancestry

@Tawhiri found his D.S.O. award in the January 1918 New Years Honours when he was back to being a Major, and serving with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. I suspect he remained on the establishment of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry but was attached to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, so reverted to his parent regiment as soon as the 25th Battalion ceased to exist. The British War Medal wasn't authorised until the end of July 1919, with the first ribbons being issued on the 4th August.

So if it is William Marshall Dugdale who is the mystery Lieutenant Colonel then probably the period in question when the photograph was taken is in 1919 before he was permitted to wear the BWM ribbon. If course there may be other candidates from earlier in the conflict.

Cheers,
Peter

[max7474]

Major Dugdale was a Boer War veteran having served with 49th Coy 9th Bn IY so that is not him as he held the QSA.

[johntaylor]

I'm a little confused - according to max7474 this is Colonel Robert Williams Wynn, author of the regimental history. But he looks to be the same person as the left-hand officer in the group photo sent by PRC. The caption identifies the two officers as Captain William M. Evans D.S.O. and Major W.M. Dugdale D.S.O. In my view, this caption must be wrong as the officer on the left looks too senior to be a Major (the other officer's Captain's pips are visible on his sleeve). It would make sense for this to be Colonel Williams Wynn, who was the CO and likely to be invited to a civic occasion like the one in the photo. Incidentally he was born in 1862, so was in his early 50s when the war broke out, which again looks consistent with both photos.

I think the one thing we can agree on is that this isn't the man in the OP's very fine mystery photo.

All the best, John

Edited 15 May , 2024 by johntaylor

[max7474]

My photo is taken form the flyleaf of his book so I think it is indeed Colonel Robert.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

Major Dugdale was a Boer War veteran having served with 49th Coy 9th Bn IY so that is not him as he held the QSA.

Good point - I thought originally it was a blemish on the photograph for the officer on the left as we look at it, but given the positioning of the one medal ribbon that is definately there, then potentially space for another medal ribbon to the left of that.

That officer looks like he could be wearing Fusilier collar badges which would be supportive of him serving in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers at that time.

1 hour ago, johntaylor said:

In my view, this caption must be wrong as the officer on the left looks too senior to be either a Captain or Major.

Dugdale was a pre-war Major in a Territorial Force Yeomanry Regiment which almost certainly means he was part of the well to do, (and probably landed), gentry of the County, used to regarding himself as part of the local elite. The 1911 Census of England & Wales shows the 30 year old William Marshall Dugdale, unmarried and born Holmes Chapel, Cheshire, assisting his father in the running of the estate and farm management at Llwyn, Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire. Father John Marshall Dugdale gives his occupation as "Retired Barrister and owner farming greater part of his own land". Later mentions in the London Gazette would see William as head of the Territorial Force Association, and in 1945 Deputy Lord Lieutenant for Montgomeryshire, being knighted in the Order of the Bath in the Kings Birthday Honours of 1946. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37598/supplement/2758/data.pdf

So most likely his assuredness and confidence in the picture may well reflect that background.

I don't subscribe so can check out the fuller article, but looks like Dugdale and Evans were granted the freedom of the borough of Llanfyllin at about that time -

Snapshot courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

So unless it was a completely different civic event to the one identified by the local history society then for me the only doubt was which one was Dugdale and which Evans.

1 hour ago, johntaylor said:

I'm a little confused - according to max7474 this is Colonel Robert Williams Wynn, author of the regimental history.

As you can see Williams-Wynn has a hefty collection of Medal Ribbons. He did win the DSO - but that was back in the Boer War which apparently was gazetted in June 1902. He was promoted Lieutenant Colonel in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Watkin_Williams-Wynn,_9th_Baronet

So while the mystery Lieutenant-Colonel might be him it doesn't look as though Williams-Wynn is a fit as he doesn't appear to have held that rank at a time when he could have been wearing only the DSO ribbon or wearing what looks to be the post 1908 Regimental Badge. I also don't believe his uniform is reflective of the very early 1900's - perhaps @FROGSMILE can give a steer as to the likely time period we could be looking at for the man pictured in the OP.

Which leaves us with a conundrum.  A D.S.O. implies service in a Theatre of War - although as Williams-Wynn shows it doesn't have to be solely Great War related. But the MiC for Williams-Wynn doesn't show him landing in Egypt until March 1917. And the March 1917 British Army Monthly List shows Dugdale as Acting Lieutenant Colonel for the 1/1st from October 1916. So who was in command of the 1/1st from their arrival in Egypt in the spring of 1916 until Dugdale took command?

The October 1916 British Army Monthly List shows it as Williams-Wynn - could the MiC have been out by a whole year?
See column 392 https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123053481

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 15 May , 2024 by PRC
Typos

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, PRC said:

Good point - I thought originally it was a blemish on the photograph for the officer on the left as we look at it, but given the positioning of the one medal ribbon that is definately there, then potentially space for another medal ribbon to the left of that.

That officer looks like he could be wearing Fusilier collar badges which would be supportive of him serving in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers at that time.

Dugdale was a pre-war Major in a Territorial Force Yeomanry Regiment which almost certainly means he was part of the well to do, (and probably landed), gentry of the County, used to regarding himself as part of the local elite. The 1911 Census of England & Wales shows the 30 year old William Marshall Dugdale, unmarried and born Holmes Chapel, Cheshire, assisting his father in the running of the estate and farm management at Llwyn, Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire. Father John Marshall Dugdale gives his occupation as "Retired Barrister and owner farming greater part of his own land". Later mentions in the London Gazette would see William as head of the Territorial Force Association, and in 1945 Deputy Lord Lieutenant for Montgomeryshire, being knighted in the Order of the Bath in the Kings Birthday Honours of 1946. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37598/supplement/2758/data.pdf

So most likely his assuredness and confidence in the picture may well reflect that background.

I don't subscribe so can check out the fuller article, but looks like Dugdale and Evans were granted the freedom of the borough of Llanfyllin at about that time -

Snapshot courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

So unless it was a completely different civic event to the one identified by the local history society then for me the only doubt was which one was Dugdale and which Evans.

As you can see Williams-Wynn has a hefty collection of Medal Ribbons. He did win the DSO - but that was back in the Boer War which apparently was gazetted in June 1902. He was promoted Lieutenant Colonel in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Watkin_Williams-Wynn,_9th_Baronet

So while the mystery Lieutenant-Colonel might be him it doesn't look as though Williams-Wynn is a fit as he doesn't appear to have held that rank at a time when he could have been wearing only the DSO ribbon or wearing what looks to be the post 1908 Regimental Badge. I also don't believe his uniform is reflective of the very early 1900's - perhaps @FROGSMILE can give a steer as to the likely time period we could be looking at for the man pictured in the OP.

Which leaves us with a conundrum.  A D.S.O. implies service in a Theatre of War - although as Williams-Wynn shows it doesn't have to be solely Great War related. But the MiC for Williams-Wynn doesn't show him landing in Egypt until March 1917. And the March 1917 British Army Monthly List shows Dugdale as Acting Lieutenant Colonel for the 1/1st from October 1916. So who was in command of the 1/1st from their arrival in Egypt in the spring of 1916 until Dugdale took command?

The October 1916 British Army Monthly List shows it as Williams-Wynn - could the MiC have been out by a whole year?
See column 392 https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123053481

Cheers,
Peter

There’s nothing I can see in his uniform and insignia beyond what we know of his rank, and decorations to give a specific date period Peter.  He’s wearing MY insignia as you mentioned and doesn’t yet have war medals so late 1918 to early 1919 seems the likely window I think.

Edited 15 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

The CO of the 14th RWF (merged Yeomanry including the 1/1 Mont Yeo) was Lt Col Spence-Jones.  That is not him either.

 

He was Pembroke Yeo and was promoted to Colonel in Oct 1918.

Edited 15 May , 2024 by max7474

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

I don't subscribe so can check out the fuller article, but looks like Dugdale and Evans were granted the freedom of the borough of Llanfyllin at about that time

Indeed.

This from the Llangollen Advertiser, November 1st 1918 is free to access via Welsh Newspapers Online:

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4244988/4244990/6/

and coincidentally , the following week's edition has a related obituary:

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4244997/4245000/13/

[johntaylor]

Hi, thanks for the newspaper articles - these are excellent and I'm sure they would have mentioned if Colonel Williams Wynn had attended the ceremony. So it seems the caption is correct - Major Dugdale is indeed the officer on the left in the group photo, and any resemblance to Williams Wynn is purely coincidental. The officer on the right seems to have three pips on his sleeve so that was presumably Captain William Evans.

Sadly, the fact remains that none of them look like the officer shown in the OP's photo.

John

[Andrew Upton]

For what it's worth - I am absolutely certain that the medal ribbon in the OP is not that of the DSO, or that of the 1914 or 1914-15 Star, though I cannot work out what it is. Orthochromatic film in the period typically renders the blue "light" and the red "dark" of the DSO ribbon, which is the reverse of how it is shown. An example below of Albert Ball sporting his DSO ribbon:

[Tawhiri]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

As posted above - the British Army Monthly List for March 1917 shows him as Acting Lieutenant Colonel of the 1/1st since October 1916, and his MiC shows him as an Acting Lieutenant Colonel, Royal West Fusiliers.

According to the Gazette, William Marshall Dugdale was appointed acting Lieutenant-Colonel on 25 October 1916, before relinquishing this acting rank on 4 March 1917 due to an alteration in posting which presumably coincides with the absorption of the 1/1st Battalion of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry into the 25th Battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29894/supplement/360

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30034/supplement/3910

I cannot find any subsequent promotions to Lieutenant Colonel, acting or otherwise, in the Gazette to the end of 1919.

[max7474]

I wonder if he is CO of the 2/1 or 3/1 MY?  This is 1/1  in mid 1918 and we can rule them out.

Alan

[max7474]

The only only Lt Col in MY is Mytton in Jun 1918's Army list who has already been ruled out.

 

Could the photo be pre WW1 and the ribbon is a QSA?

Edited 15 May , 2024 by max7474

[Tawhiri]

I was also wondering if it was worth looking at the Majors who were listed as serving with the Mongomeryshire Yeomanry late in the war to see if any of them were temporarily raised to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. It's a short list of five names, one of whom is William Marshall Dugdale, which then only leaves four more to consider.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104015288