Winchester OTC / Saxon IR 102

[bierast]

I was convinced I'd shared this one on here years ago, but apparently not... and surprisingly there also seems to be no existing topic for Winchester OTC. This photo ended up in my possession via one of my regular dealers in Saxony, no doubt because the recipients of this lovely pre-war photo were an Oberstleutnant (lieutenant-colonel) and his wife called (I think) HAENSEL who lived in Dresden-Klotzsche, Saxony.

Can anyone more experienced with British postmarks decipher the date? I've looked for Obstltn. Haensel in a couple of pre-war Saxon Ranglisten to no avail, but if I had a year that could help. I suspect that the gentleman in question was probably retired as the post is addressed to a private residence.

[GreyC]

Hi,

I read 5th Aug 3? last digit not discernable for me.

Haensel had visited in England shortly before and Jack liked the visit. He tells him that they had a good camp and will return home soon (Wedneday).

GreyC

Edited 8 May , 2024 by GreyC

[bierast]

27 minutes ago, GreyC said:

I read 5th Aug 3? last digit not discerable for me.

Haensel had visited in England shortly before and Jack liked the visit. He tells him that they had a good camp and will return home soon (Wedneday).

My goodness, you mean this could be POST-war? I must admit I had never even considered that a possibility, as I'd got it into my head that this was a relic of the lost pre-war world of casual Anglo-German friendship and monarchs in each other's uniforms... There was a Saxon Oberstleutnant a.D. (retired) named Haensel after the war - namely Horst Haensel, recipient of the Ritterkreuz des Militär-St.Heinrichs-Ordens for his actions as a Hauptmann and acting commander of the MG-Kompagnie / IR 102 on the Marne in 1914, and of the Komturkreuz 2. Klasse of the same order for his part as acting regimental commander of IR 103  in the Georgette (Armentières) offensive in 1918.

Can anyone date the kit worn by the OTC here?

[PRC]

Could be 5th, 15th or 25th August, but year is unclear.

The UK stamps featuring the head of George V were only released to tie in with his coronation in June 1911. The first design for the 1 penny red featured Lions making the surround but came in for some mockery and was revised in 1912 with the Oak and Laurel leaf frame - which is what I believe can be seen here.
See https://www.postalmuseum.org/collections/highlights/philatelic-collection/british-stamps/george-v-stamps/george-v-definitives/

So that gives you either August 1912 or August 1913 - I suspect not August 1914.

I did check out the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but there are only two individials with the surname Haensel - one a 75 year old widow living on private means and originally born in Wales, and the other a 31 year old unmarried Export Merchant staying at a boarding house in Brighton - so neither likely to be part of the couple being written too.

A check of the newspapers on the British Newspaper Archive shows the Junior O.T.C., including a contingent from Winchester, were in camp at Tidworth Pennings, (where Jack was writing from and lools like Pennings was part of the Post Office stamp), in the opening days of August 1913. I don't subscribe so can't check out the details. There are reports on the progress of the "Public Schools Camp" at Tidworth Pennings in the editions of The Times dated Friday 1st August 1913 and Monday 4th August 1913 but no specific reference to Winchester School.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 8 May , 2024 by PRC
Typos

[bierast]

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

Could be 5th, 15th or 25th August, but year is unclear.

The UK stamps featuring the head of George V were only released to tie in with his coronation in June 1911. The first design for the 1 penny red featured Lions making the surround but came in for some mockery and was revised in 1912 with the Oak and Laurel leaf frame - which is what I believe can be seen here.
See https://www.postalmuseum.org/collections/highlights/philatelic-collection/british-stamps/george-v-stamps/george-v-definitives/

So that gives you either August 1912 or August 1913 - I suspect not August 1914.

I did check out the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but there are only two individials with the surname Haensel - one a 75 year old widow living on private means and originally born in Wales, and the other a 31 year old unmarried Export Merchant staying at a boarding house in Brighton - so neither likely to be part of the couple being written too.

A check of the newspapers on the British Newspaper Archive shows the Junior O.T.C., including a contingent from Winchester, were in camp at Tidworth Pennings, (where Jack was writing from and lools like Pennings was part of the Post Office stamp), in the opening days of August 1913. I don't subscribe so can't check out the details. There are reports on the progress of the "Public Schools Camp" at Tidworth Pennings in the editions of The Times dated Friday 1st August 1913 and Monday 4th August 1913 but no specific reference to Winchester School.

Thankyou, much appreciated! I wouldn't have thought to check for Haensels living in England, as I had surmised they were simply family friends of Jack's.

It just occurred to me to search for address books for Dresden-Klotzsche and see if I could find Oberstleutnant Haensel that way... and I did. Much to my surprise I just found the very much-decorated Oberstleutnant a.D. Horst Haensel I mentioned above, living at 1 Kaiser-Wilhelm-Platz - in the 1933 address book! His wife however is not listed - I would guess that the card predates 1933 and that she had passed away in the interim.

This must therefore be post-war. Horst Haensel only received his (honorary) promotion to Oberstleutnant when he retired immediately after the war; he did not continue in service with the Reichswehr. His MStHO citations are attached below.

So the interesting questions which remain are - who were Jack and his family, and how and when had they developed such a warm friendship with a WW1 Saxon regimental commander?

[GreyC]

Hi,

I would second post war. The stamps used were theoretically valid until 1971 and most likely used regularly until the death of George V in 1936.

I have circled the "3" as I percive it.

GreyC

Hi,

I would second post war. The stamps used were theoretically valid until 1971 and most likely used regularly until the death of George V in 1936.

I have circled the "3" as I percive it.

GreyC

 

 

[GreyC]

1 hour ago, bierast said:

His wife however is not listed

She wouldn´t be listed in an adressbook unless she lived as head of household, be it seperated or divorced or widowed. So this is not an indication of her death or absence in Dresden at the time you mention. Nonetheless I stick to post-war period in the 1930s as in 1923 he is still listed as living in Nordstraße in Dresden. incidentally listed as active major. maybe the adressbook publisher had failed to update his promotion.

And another reason it had been posted in the 1930s is the overseas postal rate for postcards which stood at 1 1/2 pence between 1921 and 1st may 1940. Before it was 1 pence, after 1940: 2 pence.

GreyC

Edited 8 May , 2024 by GreyC

[bierast]

2 minutes ago, GreyC said:

She wouldn´t be listed in an adressbook unless she lived as head of household, be it seperated or divorced or widowed. So this is not an indication of her death or absence in Dresden at the time you mention. Nonetheless I stick to post-war period in the 1930s as in 1923 he is still listed as living in Nordstraße in Dresden. incidentally listed as active major. maybe the adressbook publisher had failed to update his promotion

Thankyou, that's useful to know. My primary source for his final rank and retirement is the Ehrenrangliste 1914-1918, which was published in 1926. There is also mention of him in a thread on the Axis History Forum where it is stated that he received his Charakter als Oberstleutnant in 1921.

Incidentally he gets many, many mentions in the regimental history of IR 102 (with which he served for most of the war, and briefly afterwards as well). There was also a Leutnant der Reserve Rudolf Haensel with 1./102 (born Zittau 10th August 1892, mortally wounded Soyecourt 4th September 1916 and died of wounds 31st October 1916).

[GreyC]

Pleasure! Please note the update of my last post adding postal rates strengthening post war assumption! As Glenn posted the date of his promotion it should surely be correct.

GreyC

Edited 8 May , 2024 by GreyC

[PRC]

Could be a complete co-incidence but the 31 year old Export Merchant from the 1911 Census of England & Wales, Ernst G.R. Haensel, a German National recorded staying in a Brighton lodging house, was born Dresden.

Between January and March 1910 there are also reports in the press of an "Ernest" Haensel, resident Surbiton, who had opened a court action for slander. Part of the case for the person being sued was that as far as I can make out Ernest was a reserve officer in the German Navy.

Because I don't subscribe I can only see snippets like this - and the conversion of image to text uses very primitive software which doesn't help. I can see the fuller articles when I'm in a public library but nowadays I don't know when that will next happen.

I believe this might be linked :-

Both images courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

No obvious mention of the case in The Times. Apologies if that is totally unconnected. Just thought it might have been a possible explanation of the connection.

Cheers,
Peter

[GreyC]

Sounds interesting. Thanks for posting.

Could be this guy, from DoB possibly a brother or cousin of Horst Haensel (13.3.75).

Hänsel   Ernst   Kkapt.M.A.d.R.01.02.41.         31.03.1944   01.05.1879   Hedwigsdorf   Crew of 1903 (courtesy of Glenn for Kurt and for Ernst see: https://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=11403.30)

GreyC

Edited 8 May , 2024 by GreyC

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, bierast said:

Can anyone date the kit worn by the OTC here?

While not wishing to drag @FROGSMILE out of his bed at this late hour, something  is alerting me to their caps and trousers.

They don't seem to fit with 1914/18 to my eye.

We see Sort (barreled) magazine Le Enfield rifles with loose slings and 1908 mills webbing.

The rifles and webbing can cover a long period of time, I believe.

This senior NCO or officer wearing a shirt and tie may hold a key to this?

I see no cuff rank , also wearing puttees. Screen shot below.

Regards, Bob.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

While not wishing to drag @FROGSMILE out of his bed at this late hour, something  is alerting me to their caps and trousers.

They don't seem to fit with 1914/18 to my eye.

We see Sort (barreled) magazine Le Enfield rifles with loose slings and 1908 mills webbing.

The rifles and webbing can cover a long period of time, I believe.

This senior NCO or officer wearing a shirt and tie may hold a key to this?

I see no cuff rank , also wearing puttees. Screen shot below.

Regards, Bob.

Bob they are wearing the new specification service dress cap with its spade like peak issued circa 1921-22.  Also the officers are wearing squared of (plus four) style knickerbocker trousers decreed since 1911** that were actually still “review order” dress at the beginning of WW2 for dismounted officers in service dress (mounted officers wore breeches and spurs).  Overall the photo looks 1920s to 1930s to me (as a minimum 1922-1937).

** they were not popular during the war and a majority of officers wore breeches instead.  Like many dress changes (e.g. Barathea cloth / stepped collar with shirt and tie), they had been a trend began by the Brigade of Foot Guards.

Edited 9 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

41 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

(as a minimum 1922-1937)

Thank you Frogsmile! That ties in nicely with what Bierast and I have presumed.

Best,

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Thank you Frogsmile! That ties in nicely with what Bierast and I have presumed.

Best,

GreyC

I’m glad to help old friend. 

[GreyC]

GreyC

[bierast]

Thankyou all! I was initially disappointed with the realisation that it's a post-war photo, but the identification of Obstltn. a.D. Horst Haensel reveals a wholly unexpected relevance to a unit (IR 102) I've been studying recently from a completely different angle.

There is no photo of Haensel in the IR 102 regimental history, but there may be in that of IR 103 (which I don't have). If I find one I shall add it to this thread.

To reconnect this largely post-war (and perilously off-topic) discussion back to the Great War, here's a photo from p.234 of our first book Fighting the Kaiser's War showing British POW and Saxon personnel working together at the Regimentsverbandplatz (regimental dressing station) of IR 103 at Croix Maréchal south of Armentières on 9th or 10th April 1918... Haensel assumed acting command of the regiment on the evening of the 9th. Sadly many of the men seen here were surely dead less than a fortnight later. In a cellar near Bailleul on 20th April, a single aerial bomb all but wiped out the medical personnel of IR 103 and Sanitäts-Kompanie 28 (the divisional medical company). At a stroke IR 103 lost Regimentsarzt Dr Barth, Bataillonsarzt Dr Müller and numerous stretcher-bearers. Only Bataillonsarzt Dr Monse and one other man could be rescued (in a seriously injured condition) from a total of almost thirty trapped in the rubble.

Edited 9 May , 2024 by bierast

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, bierast said:

Thankyou all! I was initially disappointed with the realisation that it's a post-war photo, but the identification of Obstltn, a.D. Horst Haensel reveals a wholly unexpected relevance to a unit (IR 102) I've been studying recently from a completely different angle.

There is no photo of Haensel in the IR 102 regimental history, but there may be in that of IR 103 (which I don't have). If I find one I shall add it to this thread.

To reconnect this largely post-war (and perilously off-topic) discussion back to the Great War, here's a photo from p.234 of our first book Fighting the Kaiser's War showing British POW and Saxon personnel working together at the Regimentverbandplatz (regimental dressing station) of IR 103 at Croix Maréchal south of Armentières on 9th or 10th April 1918... Haensel assumed acting command of the regiment on the evening of the 9th. Sadly many of the men seen here were surely dead less than a fortnight later. In a cellar near Bailleul on 20 April, a single aerial bomb all but wiped out the medical personnel of IR 103 and Sanitäts-Kompanie 28 (the divisional medical company). At a stroke IR 103 lost Regimentsarzt Dr Barth, Bataillonsarzt Dr Müller and numerous stretcher-bearers. Only Bataillonsarzt Dr Monse and one other man could be rescued (in a seriously injured condition) from a total of almost thirty trapped in the rubble.

Thank you for the poignant photo and its connected human story.  All war is terrible and industrial scale war more so.

[GreyC]

I´ll keep my fingers crossed for you finding a photo of Oberstlt. Haensel.

By the way, here is a list of the missing of IR 103 published in 1919, just in the unlikely case you don´t know it:

https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/346740/3

 

GreyC

Edited 9 May , 2024 by GreyC

[Bob Davies]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Bob they are wearing the new specification service dress cap with its spade like peak issued circa 1921-22.  Also the officers are wearing squared of (plus four) style knickerbocker trousers decreed since 1911** that were actually still “review order” dress at the beginning of WW2 for dismounted officers in service dress (mounted officers wore breeches and spurs).  Overall the photo looks 1920s to 1930s to me (as a minimum 1922-1937).

** they were not popular during the war and a majority of officers wore breeches instead.  Like many dress changes (e.g. Barathea cloth / stepped collar with shirt and tie), they had been a trend began by the Brigade of Foot Guards.

Thank you for your explanative reply FROGSMILE.

It all fits into place in my mind now.

2 hours ago, bierast said:

To reconnect this largely post-war (and perilously off-topic) discussion back to the Great War

Thank you bierast for the information/pictures and for skillfully guiding the post back to the Great War.

That is appreciated.

Regards, Bob.

[max7474]

Have you thought it might be Solihull OTC.

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, max7474 said:

Have you thought it might be Solihull OTC.

I think your right Max.  The marching soldier far right who offers the best view of the cap badge appears to confirm that.  Two visual factors convince me.  First the top of the badge within the laurel wreath is distinctly flat.  Second the bottom of the badge seems to feature a continuous curve without the sharp corner spurs of the Winchester badge.  Your spot seems very compelling.

The boys appear to me to be 6th formers, on the cusp of moving on to university or one of the military colleges.  What was the maximum age for boys at Solihull School, do you (or anyone else) know?

Edited 11 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[bierast]

My esteemed co-author Jürgen Schmieschek has pointed out that there is in fact a group photo in the regimental history of IR 102 which contains Major Haensel!

Here he is on the Aisne in 1915, furthest left. Left to right the others are an unidentified officer, the rather jovial-looking Oberst Heinrich von Zeschau (regimental commander of IR 102 until April 1916, when he started deputising as a brigade commander), Hauptmann Hermann Fiedler (company commander of 4./102, deputy battalion commander in IR 102 from summer 1915, acting commander II. Batl. / IR 192 during the French Champagne offensive in October, then battalion commander of III./102 from November 1915) and Oberleutnant Carl Noack (commander of the regiment's machine-gun company). All three of these named officers were also ultimately awarded the Ritterkreuz des Militär-St. Heinrichs-Ordens, and Oberst von Zeschau would receive the Komturkreuz 2. Klasse for his role as brigade commander in the composite Division Francke on the Somme.