Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
TD60

Glasnevin volunteer training corps

Recommended Posts

Michael

Neil

A couple of questions for you

I've only given the volunteers a passing interest but do I recall seeing in the East Kent Gazette that men who succeeded at the tribunals were forced to join them (or was it the Special constabulary?)?

Secondly, were they accommodated in the TF drill halls?

Mick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Pegum
Michael,

I'm not really sure what you're point is here, but at no time were the Irish Association of Volunteer Training Corps in cahoots with any political organisation, Nationalist or Unionist. Graham.

Graham,

I'm not making a point. Unionist, or unionist, does not refer to a political party in this context. At the time, as I'm sure you know, there were those in favour of home rule and those in favour of maintaining the union, whether members of a political party or not. My point, if there was one, is that these men were supporters of the establishment.

Thank you very much for the excellent information. From Irish Times reports in 1916 I can say that, as well as the units mentioned in your list, there was also a Rathmines corps, attached to B Company and a Royal College of Science platoon of B Company (referred to in the report as "the Veterans proper").

There was a recent suggestion, referring to a photograph on sale at an auction in Dublin, that the the Veterans' Corps were parading with rifles (real or imitation) in 1913. Do you think this is a mistake?

Annie,

Thanks very much for your useful link, which I will follow up.

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
liverpool annie

Not wanting to put a spanner in the works or anything .... but this is a quote from Steve's website !!

Officers Killed - Ireland 1916

1st (Dublin) Battalion, Associated Volunteer Training Corps

Sub-Commandant F.H. Browning

Frank Browning was President of the Irish Rugby Football Union but had also been instrumental in the formation of the the Irish Rugby Volunteer Training Corps when the war began. They drilled at Lansdowne Road and were known as the 'Gorgeous Wrecks' on account of the red 'GR' armlets they wore. Many members transferred into the 7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Browning died on the first day of the Easter Rising as he and a contingent of the IRVTC returned to Dublin after a day's manoeuvres outside the city. They were marching down Northumberland Road when they were sniped at from No. 25. 13 men were wounded, 4 of them fatally. Those who died were Frank Browning, Thomas Harbourne, James Nolan and John Gibbs. A fifth man, George Hosford, died later in the week. At a quick look, I can't see any of these men on the CWGC database.

All this comes from an article in the Sunday Tribune about 10 years ago.

This man, Frank Browning, was not, and never had been, in the Army. He was 2 i/c, under a Major, of a civilian volunteer unit called the 1st Dublin Battalion of the Irish Association of Volunteer Training Corps. The volunteers were men below or above military age, or unfit for service. They carried out military manoeuvres in training, and carried rifles. There is some doubt about whether they all wore uniforms, or civilian clothes with arm-bands. They did have a cap-badge, with the letters “G.R.” on it. Browning was killed, with several of his men, in the Easter Rising in Dublin, 1916.

Annie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Pegum

Thanks, Annie,

That comes from a thread (Cap badge) which I started recently, with a photo of Frank Browning, and I wrote the last part of the quotation above. I was trying to see if anyone could identify the cap-badge. Browning was wearing army uniform with a Sam Browne belt. The badge is indistinct, but I hoped that some of the experts could identify it.

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

post-7376-1177021393.jpg

Michael,

My apologies as I was under the impression that you thought the V.T.C. to be in one of the political camps, whereas they were only civilians doing their bit. As you will see from the Regulations posted no oath was taken by members of the V.T.C. until 1916.

The Veterans Corps parading in Dublin in 1913 could possibly be right, as there was another organisation called the "Veterans Reserve", which later went onto become the National Reserve, which during the Great War become Supernumary Companies of Territorial Battalions on mainland Britain. Considering Ireland didn't have the Territorial Force, then it's possible that the Veterans Corps may be based upon that former organisation.

Seeing the photo would have been a much better option as if they were to be seen wearing the VTC grey/green uniforms then it would almost certainly be 1915, as this was the special colour of uniform adopted by the V.T.C. who were banned from wearing khaki. I've attached a coloured print from an article I did many years ago on the V.T.C., which gives you an idea on the colour and style of the uniform.

Sadly there isn't much information relating to Irish VTC badges and I would imagine that in later years those who were in it got rid of them at the best possible oppotunity. I've only ever owned one Irish VTC lapel badge and I managed to swap it for a 1st V.B.,Northumberland Fusiliers officers belt buckle, which shows how much it was worth.

Graham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neil Clark
Neil

A couple of questions for you

I've only given the volunteers a passing interest but do I recall seeing in the East Kent Gazette that men who succeeded at the tribunals were forced to join them (or was it the Special constabulary?)?

Secondly, were they accommodated in the TF drill halls?

Mick

Mick,

Yes as far as I can tell they were given the use of the Territorial Force Drill Halls. In Ashford they regularly paraded alongside members of the 2/5th and 3/5th Buffs (second and third line T.F). I am sure the all volunteer companies did the same throughout Kent. I think it is fair to describe the volunteers as the Great War's Home Guard. Their roots in 1914 were the Volunteer Training Corps (VTC) these were civilian para-military units raised in towns and villages throughout the county. By early 1915 the VTC's in Kent had come together to form one organisation - the Kent Volunteer Fencibles. This new force didn't last very long because the authorities recognised that these men could be put to good use guarding the Medway defences and such like. The Kent Volunteer Fencibles was split in two - North Kent companies were formed into volunteer battalions of the West Kent's and South Kent Volunteer Fencibles were formed into volunteer battalions of our beloved Buffs.

The best way to describe the Volunteers is to compare them to the Second World War Home Guard (Local Defence Volunteers).

The following is my own work for kentfallen.com (soon to come online). Feel free to use it Mick (the information was taken from the Volunteer List 1918) -

On 6 August 1914 a letter appeared in the Times Newspaper signed by Mr Percy A Harris advocating the forming of a Kent Volunteer Training Corps (V.T.C). At the end of the month the War Office veteod the raising of volunteer military units, but gave sanction to organise "Civilian" Volunteer Training Corps. These "training" units quickly sprang up all over the country and began to recruit for the overseas armies. The Kent Volunteer Training Corps was created and a County Commandant appointed (Lord Harris). By the end of 1915 the Volunteer Act 1915 was passed in parliament which awarded military status and rank to those who volunteered for service in the VTC's. Most volunteers were too old to serve overseas, others were from reserved occupations whose indespensible bussiness or employment absolutely prevented them from joining the Territorial Force. Lord Harris the County Commandant from Throwley near Faversham took charge of the volunteers and called it the "Kent Volunteer Fencibles". Their capbadge was based upon the Invicta Prancing Horse with the letters K.V.F on the top. In August 1916 the War Office, taking the matter more decidedly in hand decided to absorb the Volunteer units into the formal County Infantry Regiment structure. Four "volunteer" Infantry battalions were formed from the Kent Volunteer Fencibles into volunteer Buffs infantry battalions -

Incidently Mick, if ever you're near Throwley Faversham you can go and have a look at Lord Harris grave and memorial. Lord Harris was deeply involved with both The Buffs and the Royal East Kent Mounted Rifles. The Harris family have a plaque in the church itself that commemorates the family war dead - quite a few. Next to the Harris family plot in the churchyard are a few RFC headstones from pilots who died in accidents serving at Thowley airfield during the Geat War. Whilst your in Throwley why not have a look at the old airfield? I can give you directions and provide some photos of remains etc... I've spent hours walking the area... Better still we could perhaps meet up?

THE ROYAL WEST KENT VOLUNTEERS

1st (Volunteer) Battalion, Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)

Drill Hall, Tonbridge, Kent

Hon Commandant - Lieutenant Colonel The Earl of Amherst (Captain, Retired pay)

Commanding Officer - Major J Rowlandson (Brevet Colonel Retired Pay)

Captain J.W Little (Second in Command)

Captain R.A Webb (Medical Officer) (Royal Army Medical Corps (V)

Captain D Laing

Captain S.G Hallum

Captain A.R Soames (Adjutant)

Hon Colonel R.K Bevington

Captain C Smith

Chaplain Reverand R.A Bull M.A

Lieutenant T.W Webb (Quartermaster January 1917)

Lieutenant H Reece (Quartermaster April 1917)

Lieutenants

Morgan F.B

Gabriel B

Russell H

Winterton E.K.J

Kennington C

Beecheno G.H (Machine Gun Officer)

Cochrane A.H.D

Second Lieutenants

Handcock E.W

Chamberlain J

Darling A.M

Mason H.P

Sidebottom W.H

Busk J.L

Budden M

Stone N.R

Regard M.C.J

Smith A.W

Locket G.C

2nd (Volunteer) Battalion, Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)

Old Palace, Maidstone, Kent

Hon Commandant - Lieutenant Colonel H.D.A Breton (Colonel Retired Pay)

Commanding Officer - Lieutenant Colonel A.C Borton (From Cheveney, Yalding and father Lt Col of A.D Borton VC)

Second in Command - Captain C.B Mercer

Captain W.C Price (Adjutant) (1st Garrison Btn, Middlesex Regiment)

Lieutenant E Waters (Assistant Adjutant)

Lieutenant E.H Epps (Quartermaster)

Lieutenant M Packer (Asst Q.M)

Captain E.J Wood (Medical Officer) (Royal Army Medical Corps (V)

Lieutenant E Henriques (Asst Medical Officer) (RAMC(V)

Captains

Hepworth H.J

Nash J.W

Boucher F.C

Rhodes F.W

Bryan F.J

Lewis A.T

Macartney J.H

Smith A.W

Lieutenants

Day W.H

Eager G

Amies E.H

Fearnley P

Moffett R

Cobb R

Stigant H.E

Hubble T.W

Waters E (Assistant Adjutant)

Milnes C

Youngman J.H

Soffe R.G

Clarke J.G

Second Lieutenants

Nash J.C

Allenby R.B

Nye T.W

Ritchie F

Crawford W

Arnauld F.W.T

Phillips W

Brice W (St J)

Dunstall H.H

Finnis J.T

Hubble E (Late Lieutenant R.West Kent's)

Smith J.G.L

3rd (Volunteer) Battalion, Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)

Drill Hall, Parish Lane, Penge, Kent (now London)

Hon Commandant - Lieutenant Colonel C Child

Commanding Officer - Major P Dawson

Second in Command - Captain A.L Carpenter

Captain F.E Florance (Adjutant)

Lieutenant R Tylor (Quartermaster)

Lieutenant R.A Doble (Quartermaster 1918)

Captain R Wilkinson (Medical Officer) (RAMC (V)

Lieutenant H.W Thomas (Medical Officer)

Chaplain - Reverand G.F Cartwright

Captains

Glanvill C.R

Young F.W.R

Bacon A.R

Le May H.H

Michael C.E

Rowe J.C

Hills C.D

Baker M

Lieutenants

Wilson W.J

Palmer W.J

Sentance R.H (Machine Gun Officer)

Dale E.T (Adjutant)

Mackenzie H.D

Roberts E.J

Eyre H

Burrows E.P

Galloway E.A

Second Lieutenants

Ovenden H

Elgood C.A

Purvis J

Pulman H.P

Pettigrew W.C

Sheppard C.V

Stone W.B

Coulson H

Livermore E.G

Perkins H

Showers F.T

4th (Volunteer) Battalion, Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)

"Trevethan", Bexley Road, Erith, Kent (now London)

Hon Commandant - Lieutenant Colonel Sir D.D.T O'Callaghan KCVO (Major General Retired Pay)

Commanding Officer - Major C.H Gray

Second in Command - Captain C.P Taylor

Lieutenant F.H Frost (Adjutant) (17th London Regiment)

Lieutenant Paler C.J (Quartermaster)

Captain Brown H (Medical Officer) (Royal Army Medical Corps (V)

Captains

Cannon T.N

Dodd E.T

Wright F.W

Dines H.R

Astell H.W

Lieutenants

Maybey H.D

Jowett H.A.D

Baily H.D

Cope S.F

Paton C.J (Assistant Adjutant)

Glanfield C.F

Gibson A

Second Lieutenants

Bex A

Hobbs E.J

Sorrell C

Passmore F.W

Key G.C

Stace W.H.S

Mitchell H.J

Bowers J.L

Muller H (Late Captain West Riding Regiment)

Furlong F.O

Holland W

Howard H.C

Stewart A Mel

THE BUFFS VOLUNTEERS

1st Volunteer Battalion, The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)

70 Marine Parade, Hythe, Kent

Hon Commandant - Lieutenant Colonel Rt Hon Earl Beauchamp KCMG

Commanding Officer - Brigadier General W Tylden

Second in Command - Captain G.C Elliott

Captain F.B Whatley (Adjutant)

Captain C Twopeny (Assistant Adjutant)

Captain J.T Blount (Quartermaster)

Captain H.R.J Willis

Captain R.M Bourne

Captain I.P Hodgson

Captain F.B Hulke

Captain A.M Evanson

Captain C Dixon

Lieutenant W.R Richardson

Lieutenant A.R Bowles

Lieutenant E.D Fitzgerald

Lieutenant W.P Matthews

Lieutenant C.C Flashman

Lieutenant H Stainer

Lieutenant A.E.R Kennedy

Lieutenant W.R Mowll

Lieutenant A.K Mowll

Lieutenant L.B Watson

Lieutenant J Richardson (Medical Officer RAMC(V)

Second Lieutenant S.B Hulke

Second Lieutenant Lord W.H Northbourne (Hon Colonel 3rd Home Counties Brigade RFA)

Second Lieutenant E Lawrence

Second Lieutenant R.W.A Pryer

Second Lieutenant W.T Barron

Second Lieutenant G Wilson

Second Lieutenant C.G Molyneux

Second Lieutenant J.H Lewis

Second Lieutenant A.G Cook

Second Lieutenant E.M Birch

Second Lieutenant W.R Wood

2nd Volunteer Battalion, The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)

Drill Hall, St Peters Lane, Canterbury, Kent

Commanding Officer 1916 - Major J.C Tattershall

Captain C.H Aitkin (Second in Command)

Captain F.W Wacher

Captain C Terry

Captain H Kitto

Captain C.W.G.H Wheler (Royal East Kent Mounted Rifles) (Adjutant)

Captain W.H Hamilton (Quartermaster)

Captain H.O Preston (Medical Officer) (RAMC(V)

Lieutenant J Sanderson

Lieutenant F.M Carson

Lieutenant W Muggeridge

Lieutenant D Grant

Lieutenant J.E Riordan

Lieutenant P.A Ellis

Lieutenant A.H.W Ingram

Second Lieutenant E.C Harris

Second Lieutenant W.L Pickford

Second Lieutenant L Greensted

Second Lieutenant C Wacher

Second Lieutenant S.A Robertson

Second Lieutenant E.H Wix

Second Lieutenant C.G Neame

Second Lieutenant E Hardy

3rd (Volunteer) Battalion,The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)

The Banks, Broadstairs, Kent

Hon Colonel - Lt Col Vicount Northcliffe of St Peter's

Commanding Officer 1916 - Major General C.F Browne CB, DSO

Commanding Officer 1917 - Major H.T Guillick

Captain A.W Matthews (Second in Command)

Captain C.S Reed

Captain T Horne

Captain B.M Cushing

Captain E.K Rowe

Captain J.G Smith (Adjutant)

Captain S Shea (Quartermaster)

Captain A F Street M.D (Medical Officer) (RAMC(V)

Lieutenant A.H Cox

Lieutenant G.T Rogers

Lieutenant W.F.G Saull

Lieutenant G.M Norton

Lieutenant J.J Cornelious (Assistant Adjutant)

Lieutenant P.L Webster

Lieutenant J.H Robinson

Lieutenant J.A Forde

Second Lieutenant A.L.S Champion

Second Lieutenant H.E.E Jeston

Second Lieutenant W Coleman

Second Lieutenant G.E Venner

Second Lieutenant C.M Poole

Second Lieutenant C.R Beaumont

Second Lieutenant W.J Gardner

Second Lieutenant A.J Thyne

Second Lieutenant A.J.W Smith

Reverand C Moor (Chaplain)

4th Volunteer Battalion, The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)

Drill Hall, Ashford, Kent

Hon Colonel - Lieutenant Colonel Vicount Goschen (From Hawkhurst)

Commanding Officer 1916 - Major H.E.Twisleton Wykeham- Fiennes

Commanding Officer 1917 - Major W.R Fitzhugh

Captain L.H Browning (Second in Command)

Captain J Lintott (Adjutant) (Royal Sussex Regiment)

Lieutenant W.E Sawbridge Earl-Drax (Assistant Adjutant)

Lieutenant F Strouts

Lieutenant F.R.B Hinde (Medical Officer) (RAMC(V)

Reverand G.L Thorp (Chaplain) (Late Captain Glos V.Art)

Captain A.J Burrows

Captain A Morely

Lieutenant G.W Perkins

Lieutenant H.E Ward

Lieutenant W.L.C Turner

Lieutenant H.S Norton

Lieutenant S.C Rogerson

Lieutenant A.J Houghton

Lieutenant E Cameron

Lieutenant F.G.J Ford

Lieutenant F.D Morford

Lieutenant E Finn

Lieutenant T.B Cheeseman

Lieutenant E.C.C Holder

Second Lieutenant E.H Humphries

Second Lieutenant J.M.A Poncia

Second Lieutenant F.C Giddy

Second Lieutenant C.W Noakes

Second Lieutenant R.H Rumens

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
liverpool annie

Hi Michael !

Sorry .... I knew I'd seen your name somewhere ???

I looked for that cap badge for many hours ! ( I was looking for a brass harp badge ! ;) )

I was also reading your thread "War memorial in Lansdowne Road, Anyone know what's happening to it?"

just now ... fascinating ... !!

Annie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael

Thanks Neil. There are some familiar Buffs family names there. I'l give you a shout about the airfield.

Mick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Pegum
Seeing the photo would have been a much better option as if they were to be seen wearing the VTC grey/green uniforms then it would almost certainly be 1915, as this was the special colour of uniform adopted by the V.T.C. who were banned from wearing khaki. I've attached a coloured print from an article I did many years ago on the V.T.C., which gives you an idea on the colour and style of the uniform.

Sadly there isn't much information relating to Irish VTC badges and I would imagine that in later years those who were in it got rid of them at the best possible oppotunity. I've only ever owned one Irish VTC lapel badge and I managed to swap it for a 1st V.B.,Northumberland Fusiliers officers belt buckle, which shows how much it was worth.

Graham.

The photo I mentioned showed men in civilian clothes, and was too faded even to see if they were wearing arm-bands. Your picture is very interesting, Graham, as the badges on the cap and collar look like the one on my other thread which has a grainy photo (see link in my reply to Annie of April 19th). Can you say what the design was?

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

post-7376-1178138980.jpgpost-7376-1178139027.jpg

Michael,

Sorry I'm unable to tell what the design of the cap and collar badges are, but it looks like a matching set. I've enclosed a photo of Newcastle V.T.C.'s Commandant, the Lord Mayor of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Alderman John Fitzgerald who was himself an Irishman. Plus a comic post card showing a VTC member in civilian attire with the red 'GR' arm band which was worn on all parades regardless of whether or not a uniform was possessed.

Graham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...