Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

TD60

Glasnevin volunteer training corps

Recommended Posts

TD60

:(

In the dublin military cemetry there is soldier's grave with the unit indicated = Glasnevin volunteer training corps .

Additional information:

The name is Hosford JC and mention " Killed in action" - 28th april 1916.

above action was certainly Easter riot in Dublin center city.

His name seems no to be in the CWGC registers but his grave is in the british cemetery with other english soldiers.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
museumtom

Private Joseph Hosford Irish Voluntees Training Corps, was killed in the Sinn Fein rebellion and listed as having being killed 24th-25th April 1916. This is from Irelands Memorial records. (Remember War dead databases?)I was born not 3 miles from Glasevin. Glasnevin means Nevins River. Nevin was an ancient pre-Christian Chief and lived in the area.

Tom the Fingalian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TD60
Private Joseph Hosford Irish Voluntees Training Corps, was killed in the Sinn Fein rebellion and listed as having being killed 24th-25th April 1916. This is from Irelands Memorial records. (Remember War dead databases?)I was born not 3 miles from Glasevin. Glasnevin means Nevins River. Nevin was an ancient pre-Christian Chief and lived in the area.

Tom the Fingalian.

Many thanks for your detailed answer.

However I am not sure to understand why he is not recorded in the CWGC database.

The "Irish Volunteers Training Corps" was not considered as belonging to the british army ?

Best regards :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wienand Drenth

This is an interesting note. I didn't know there were VTC's in Ireland, I thought only in England, Scotland and Wales.

I wonder if these were formed on the same grounds as the other (non Irish) VTC's. Does someone have more info on this?

Cheers,

Wienand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
museumtom

In the memorial records it also lists KIA during the rebellion as far as I can see, so I understand this as the man was a cadet in the Irish Volunteers training Corps, not a British Army Officer training corps and would not have his name in SDGW or CWGC. I may be wrong but that is my opinion.

Tom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
museumtom

I just ran through the other three that are listed as having died in Dublin as part of the Sinn fein rebellion and these guys seem to be Irish Volunteers for the Irish side of the rebellion. The one officer listed is Sub-Commandant F.H.Browning of the Irish Volunteer Training Corps. Now does that sound like a British rank to you? well it sounds like an Irish rank to me. We have Commandants in the Irish Army.

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TD60
I just ran through the other three that are listed as having died in Dublin as part of the Sinn fein rebellion and these guys seem to be Irish Volunteers for the Irish side of the rebellion. The one officer listed is Sub-Commandant F.H.Browning of the Irish Volunteer Training Corps. Now does that sound like a British rank to you? well it sounds like an Irish rank to me. We have Commandants in the Irish Army.

Tom

Hello,

Irish side of the rebellion ?

Then I wonder was those soldiers have been buried rounded by british soldiers died the same days.

It is difficult to believe that.

None of the sides would accept that I think

Do you think the Irish side was so well organized in 1916 ?

<_< I am far to be a specialist of those events but I do not understand

that this rebellion was supported by a "formal army".

Later in the 20's certainly, but in easter 1916 ?

Now with those information, I imagine that those Irish Volunteers were not

an official troup of the british army.

Maybe it was just before to enter the army.

Anyway it seems strange also that if they were from the british side of the rebellion, why are they excluded or ignored from CWGC database ?

:(Seen from here and now, it would seem not fair for that guys

who have given their life for the british army and were killed in action.

Regards :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wienand Drenth

Hello All,

I don't know if this has anything to do this the topic. But in Charles Messenger's new book (Call to Arms) on page 103 I read that the Catholic south formed Irish Volunteer in answer to the formation of the Ulster Volunteer Force. This happened just a year before the war. Possibly the Glasnevin VTC was related?

Regards,

Wienand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
swizz

I think I can help a bit with this - or at least with Sub-Commandant FH Browning. Frank Browning was President of the Irish Rugby Football Union but had also been instrumental in the formation of the the Irish Rugby Volunteer Training Corps when the war began. They drilled at Lansdowne Road and were known as the 'Gorgeous Wrecks' on account of the red 'GR' armlets they wore. Many members transferred into the 7th Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Browning died on the first day of the Easter Rising as he and a contingent of the IRVTC returned to Dublin after a day's manoeuvres outside the city. They were marching down Northumberland Road when they were sniped at from No. 25. 13 men were wounded, 4 of them fatally. Those who died were Frank Browning, Thomas Harbourne, James Nolan and John Gibbs. A fifth man, George Hosford, died later in the week. At a quick look, I can't see any of these men on the CWGC database.

All this comes from an article in the Sunday Tribune about 10 years ago. Hope its of some interest!

Swizz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Pegum
museumtom said:
I just ran through the other three that are listed as having died in Dublin as part of the Sinn Fein rebellion and these guys seem to be Irish Volunteers for the Irish side of the rebellion. The one officer listed is Sub-Commandant F.H.Browning of the Irish Volunteer Training Corps. Now does that sound like a British rank to you? well it sounds like an Irish rank to me. We have Commandants in the Irish Army.

Tom

 

The official name of the organisation was the Irish Association of Volunteer Training Corps, and the Irish Rugby Union V.T.C. and the Glasnevin V.T.C. were local units. They were on the Unionist side.

Where did the rank of Sub-Commandant, with reference to Frank Browning, appear? None of the accounts of the battle which I have read gave any rank for Browning, but it was clear that he was an officer and junior to a Major. There is a photo of him, and my query about his cap-badge, at Browning cap-badge

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

Michael,

The Volunteer Training Corps was the WWI equivalent of the Home Guard and was found in Ireland as well as mainland Britain. Despite the unusual ranks used they were very much a "British" institution during the Great War. After the Easter Rebellion, I believe the Irish V.T.C. was eventually run-down as no Irish units appear within the formation of the Volunteer Force(from the old VTC) in the summer of 1916.

For more information on the V.T.C. a search of the Forum would be worthwhile as they've cropped up a number of times.

Graham.

P.S.

They weren't Unionists either, they were a non-political organisation who sole aim was to help defend the U.K. in it's hour of need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neil Clark

My understanding of the V.T.C concurs with Graham Stewart (above).

Speaking from a local viewpoint (Kent) I know that on the outbreak of war the local people formed Volunteer Training Corps to train men to defend the country in the event of the UK being attacked or occupied. As the war progressed the authorities bought these civilians under goverment (army) control. The local Ashford VTC eventually became the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, The Buffs (East Kent Regiment). It consisted of men too old for frontline military service and men in reserved occupations.

Don't confuse this body of men with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd line Territorial Force Buffs battalions (2/4th 2/5th, 3/4th 3/5th Buffs) - they were a completely separate organisation coming under the control of the Kent Territorial Association and the army itself.

I agree with Graham that the VTC can be described as the Great War's "Home Guard".

One can imagine that in Ireland this organisation was often linked closely to the UDA, UVF and such like (in protestant areas). It is my understanding that many catholics were on the side of Germany and wanted nothing to do with defending the "devil country". That's not to say that many catholics went on to serve in the British armed forces and gave their lives too...

Neil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Terry Denham

This unit would have been classified as a civilian unit and not qualify for any CWGC recognition.

The Home Guard in WW2 was a civilian unit but was accepted as one of the Recognised Civilian Organisations which did qualify for CWGC recognition if their deaths occurred under certain limited circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
swizz
One can imagine that in Ireland this organisation was often linked closely to the UDA, UVF and such like (in protestant areas). It is my understanding that many catholics were on the side of Germany and wanted nothing to do with defending the "devil country". That's not to say that many catholics went on to serve in the British armed forces and gave their lives too...

Neil

Neil

As I'm sure you appreciate the situation is massively more complicated than this. My understanding is that, during the first stages of the war (which is the time period we are discussing here), the vast majority of Irish nationalists supported it - hence the large numbers of them serving in the armed forces. It was only as the war went on that the tide began to turn, particularly after the problems with falling recruitment and possible conscription in 1918. So I think that to say that 'many Catholics were on the side of Germany' is overstating the case.

Also, the UDA did not exist in 1916.

Swizz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Pegum
Neil

As I'm sure you appreciate the situation is massively more complicated than this.

Swizz

More complicated is right! The context is that the Irish Association of Volunteer Training Corps was formed well before the Great War began, and might be described as constitutional Unionists (i.e. in favour of maintaining the union of Great Britain and Ireland). At the time there were other armed groups: the National Volunteers (constitutional Home Rulers who supported the Great War when it came), the Ulster Volunteer Force (opposed to Home Rule and also supporting the war), the Irish Citizen Army (socialist republicans), and the Irish Volunteers (the nationalist counterpart of the U.V.F.). The last two took part in the Easter Rising.

It is therefore not at all clear whether the I.A.V.T.C. were the equivalent of the Home Guard in Great Britain, or a local Irish unit formed in response to the political situation and the formation of other armed groups. They were, incidentally, not exclusively protestant.

If anyone has any documentary evidence about the history of the I.A.V.T.C., and its organisation, I would be very glad to see it, as I am researching Frank Browning. I also asked, above, where the records of such a unit might be, as they were associated with the British Army; the officer in charge at the time of the Easter Rising was an Army major.

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ken Devitt

Private Joseph Hosford is listed as being in the 1st. Bn. (Dublin) Associated Volunteer Training Corps.

He left a wife and child. I would expect the Glasnevin lads were a unit of the GR battalion. Quite a large number of young men from this area of Dublin served and died during the war.

Regards,

Ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
liverpool annie

I don't know if the Imperial War Museum would be of any help .... they don't mention Ireland but it might be worth an email !

Volunteer Training Corps

The Volunteer Training Corps was the First World War equivalent of the Home Guard.

No personal service records are known to exist, and medal records will not be able to help, as no campaign medal was given for home service (although if an individual had previous or later service abroad he would have been eligible).

Officers are listed in the Volunteer Force List, and we have issues of this from October 1917 and October 1918.

You may find some material held locally or with the relevant regiments.

The Imperial War Museum's Department of Printed Books has the following as well as a few unit histories:

The Volunteer Force and the Volunteer Training Corps during the Great War: official record of the Central Association Volunteer Regiments - London: P.S. King, 1920. - vi, 63p.; 19cm.

The official regulations for Volunteer Training Corps and for County Volunteer

organisations (England and Wales) / edited by J.P. Blake. - London: Central

Association Volunteer Training Corps, 1916. - 128p.: ill.; 19cm.

Official regulations for Volunteer Training Corps and for County Volunteer

orgainsations (England and Wales) / edited by J.P. Blake. - London: Central

Association Volunteer Training Corps, 1915. - 104p.: ill.; 19cm. - index.

The Volunteer Training Corps Gazette [December 1914-September 1917]

http://www.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.00100p005005002

Annie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

Michael,

I'm not really sure what you're point is here, but at no time were the Irish Association of Volunteer Training Corps in cahoots with any political organisation, Nationalist or Unionist. The movement had its begininngs in August 1914 when ad-hoc defence associations which were formed throughout the whole of the United Kingdom were formed, which eventually came together under the "Central Association of Volunteer Training Corps".

The number of Corps raised in Ireland isn't definitive, but from know sources I do know that the following units were raised between 1914 and 1916;-

1st Battalion Dublin V.T.C. - consisted of the following individual Corps;-

The Irish Rugby Football Union V.T.C.

The Dublin Veterans Corps

Glasnevin V.T.C., which formed part of 'C' Company.

The City V.T.C.

The Railway V.T.C.

In Dublin area you also had ;-

Greystones V.T.C.

Bray V.T.C.

Kingston & District V.T.C.

The reason for my saying that the list is not definitive is because the Irish Associaton of V.T.C.'s has never been fully documented. The units which remained in the Belfast area were disbanded around 1917.

I'll try and post some pages from V.T.C. Regs to see if it makes any difference to how you look upon these men.

Graham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

post-7376-1176845486.jpg

Inside cover of Regs for the V.T.C.

Graham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Graham Stewart

post-7376-1176846119.jpg

Hope this lot makes a bit more sense of the organisation, which as I've already stipulated were primarily a WWI Home Guard force.

Graham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neil Clark

Now that's a definative answer if ever I saw one Graham....

As I have stated above, in 1914 the civil authorites encouraged local men to form VTC's. As the war progressed, the military authorities decided to bring these civil units under government/military control. This was certainly the arrangement in Ashford. I can't comment on irish affairs...

I understand that in Kent during the early part of 1914 this civilian (para-military) unit Volunteer Training Corps was known for a short while as the "Kent Volunteer Fencibles". I possess a cap badge of theirs (a prancing Kent horse within a shield with the letters KVF underneath). They were finally bought under military control in 1915 when the military decided that they could be a good asset and were eventually split up between the Royal West Kent Regiment and The Buffs to form volunteer battalions (much like WW2 Home Guard).

By 1918 the former Kent VTC/KVF had been bought under government control via the county Territorial Association -

Lord Lieutenant Col J.C Camden TD, RFA

County Commandant Col G.R.C Harris GCSI, GCIE, TD, ADC

County Adjutant Maj H Nicholson

The Buffs (East Kent Regiment)

13 St Georges Place, Canterbury, Kent

1st Volunteer Battalion (Hythe)

2nd Volunteer Battalion (Canterbury)

3rd Volunteer Battalion (Broadstairs)

4th Volunteer Battalion (Ashford)

Royal West Kent Regiment

Old Palace, Maidstone, Kent

1st Volunteer Battalion (Tonbridge)

2nd Volunteer Battalion (Maidstone)

3rd Volunteer Battalion (Penge)

4th Volunteer Battalion (Erith)

I possess a copy of The Volunteer List October 1918 which covers England, Wales and Scotland. It does not include Ireland... Anyone want a look up for their county?

Well done Graham...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...