Identifying various uniforms, Freed family.

[Ms Morgan]

I recently received some photographs of family members, some in uniform from the 1st World war ( I believe).  I have been an Ancestry member for years and I would like to upload the  pictures with relevant information regarding what we're the uniforms the men were wearing.Some are also German uniforms. Any help would be appreciated. 

Jayne Morgan 

[mancpal]

Jayne,

the final photo looks like a police uniform. 
Simon

[Ms Morgan]

Thank you for your reply. I think you maybe  right in thinking it was a police uniform as incidentally another of his brothers John Stanilaus Freed was a metropolitan police constable who sadly died saving another policeman's life in London during a bombing raid in 1940.

[mancpal]

I’ve just had another look at the first uniform and the shape of collar and badges make me think it’s not British, OR’s didn’t usually wear collar titles during WW1 though there are no doubt exceptions. Australian (rising sun) and Canadians (maple leaf) did along with some pioneers but this is way out of my sphere of knowledge. There are notable uniform experts on the forum for both Allied and German uniforms so I don’t think you’ll wait too long to receive chapter and verse.

Simon

 

[mancpal]

I started by googling the German photographers name although I didn’t get far other than confirming a Bremerhaven base. The sailors tunic has images on Google described as “colonial German uniforms” and another as “WW1 German Kaiserliche Marine jacket”. The image for the latter even has the yellow chevron on the left sleeve as in your photo.

Simon

[Ms Morgan]

Thank you so much for your time in researching the various uniforms. It's fascinating especially as it's ancestors I'd  never seen photos of before.I vaguely remember hearing that two of the Freed brothers emigrated to Canada, so perhaps that ties in with your thoughts about it being a uniform from  Canada. 

Jayne

[mancpal]

Doesn’t look like the Canadian Maple Leaf collar badge. I’ve just noticed forum member Frogsmile is loitering and he will no doubt be of great help.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

Picture 1.  I think British or British Colonial soldier and wearing a blue patrol jacket.  The collar badge reminds me a little of the Border Regiment (Cumberland and Westmorland), but it’s not clear enough to be sure and it is a not uncommon shape overall.

Picture 2.  Looks like a Germanic uniform, perhaps Uhlans given the plastron style front.  @GreyCmight advise.

Picture 3. German Imperial Kriegsmarine Artillery I believe.

Picture 4.  A British policeman.  Collar numbers were introduced in Victorian times so that policemen could be identified individually by the public and could thus be held to account.

10 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Frogsmile is loitering

Blimey, you’ve caught me bang to rights guv.  I woz just typin…honest guv!

Edited 30 April , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[Ms Morgan]

Thank you so much for all of the information regarding uniforms. Could you please expand on the british colonial uniform? I don't suppose you would happen to know of their ranks or position in their forces? 

Jayne Morgan 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ms Morgan said:

Thank you so much for all of the information regarding uniforms. Could you please expand on the british colonial uniform? I don't suppose you would happen to know of their ranks or position in their forces? 

Jayne Morgan 

He’s a private soldier** in a British regiment (or colonial equivalent) is all that I could say based on what’s visible.

** this was originally ‘private man’ and was / is the lowest, starting rank, for a soldier.

Edited 30 April , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[Ms Morgan]

Many thanks again

[Ms Morgan]

Last question I promise..

What was the image of the metallic medals you sent? 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Ms Morgan said:

Last question I promise..

What was the image of the metallic medals you sent? 

Collar badges of the Border Regiment (Cumberland and Westmorland).

Do you know what the geographic home area for that man was?  Where he was raised?

[Ms Morgan]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Collar badges of the Border Regiment (Cumberland and Westmorland).

Do you know what the geographic home area for that man was?  Where he was raised?

 

I know he lived in Little Chart Kent, that's all I'm afraid 

[Glenn J]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Picture 2.  Looks like a Germanic uniform, perhaps Uhlans given the plastron style front.

The green? shoulder boards and collar turnbacks suggest that is a Prussian forestry officials' uniform.

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Glenn J said:

The green? shoulder boards and collar turnbacks suggest that is a Prussian forestry officials' uniform.

Regards

Glenn

Thanks Glenn, that’s really helpful.  Much of Europe during that era seemed to favour very military style uniforms for their civilian bureaucrats and functionaries, especially within the various Empires, as I know you’ll be very aware.  It’s something that I have a theory evolved from the Napoleonic wars and French influenced administrations. 

Edited 30 April , 2024 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, Ms Morgan said:

 

I know he lived in Little Chart Kent, that's all I'm afraid 

I’m sorry but I can’t see any Kent connection in his uniform I’m afraid.  It was worth considering though.

[Ms Morgan]

Thanks anyway

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Ms Morgan said:

Thanks anyway

The collar badge also looks a bit like a rose surmounted with a small crown.  It was a popular badge associated with the Tudors.  If only you could get a better quality scan of his collar and the badges.

[Ms Morgan]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

The collar badge also looks a bit like a rose surmounted with a small crown.  It was a popular badge associated with the Tudors.  If only you could get a better quality scan of his collar and the 

 

[Ms Morgan]

Unfortunately I only have a very small photo of him which is rather blurry. I will try tomorrow to see if I  can somehow sharpen the image on my computer,  fingers crossed! 

[PRC]

7 hours ago, Ms Morgan said:

another of his brothers John Stanilaus Freed was a metropolitan police constable who sadly died saving another policeman's life in London during a bombing raid in 1940.

The Constable John Stanislaus Freed, Police War Reserve, who died at Chislehurst Police Box, Petts Wood on the 19^th October 1940 was aged 60 according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/3116162/john-stanislaus-freed/

If that man was born in England & Wales then the most likely birth was that of a John Stanislaus Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, which was registered with the civil authorities In the Wantage District of Berkshire in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1880.

So when the 1881 Census of England & Wales was taken on the 3^rd April the most likely match was a 7 month old John Freed, born Hendred, Berkshire, who was recorded in a dwelling in East Hendred. That area fell within the Wantage Civil Registration District for the recording of Births, Marriages and Deaths.

Head of the household was his married mother Mary Freed, aged 36 and born Loose, Kent.

Other children in the household are:-

Francis Freed, aged 5, born Faringdon, Berkshire.The birth of a Francis Thomas Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, was registered with the civil authorities in the Faringdon District in Q3 1875.

Thomas Freed, aged 4, born Hendred. The birth of a Thomas Nicholas Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, was registered with the civil authorities in the Wantage District in Q3 1876.

Constance, aged 2, born Hendred. The birth of a Mary Constance Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, was registered with the civil authorities in the Wantage District in Q4 1878.

Following Francis through to the 1911 Census of England & Wales finds him aged 36 and the married head of the household at 65, Albert Town, Haverfordwest. He has an occupation that possibly accounts for the uniform he is shown wearing in the photograph – he is an RSPCA inspector. He lives there with his wife of 1 year, Elizabeth, aged 26 and born Barnesbury, London, and their 3 month old daughter.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

FindMyPast look like they have transcribed a Medal Roll for a Francis Thomas Freed, but aren’t showing an associated Medal Index Card. I don’t subscribe so can’t investigate further.

Familysearch don’t have online accress to the actual documents but they are showing surviving burnt series service records for a Frank Freed, born East Hendred, Berkshire and resident Worcester Park, Surrey. 

He joined the Royal Fusiliers in 1914 with regimental service number G/5679. He was serving with The Buffs, East Kent Regiment when he was discharged in 1919 – regimental service number G/12652. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBG-F6DS

Ancestry have service records for a Francis Thomas Freed, a medal roll entry in that name, and what looks like a related pension ledger. Unfortunately not a subscriber there either, but as a free account holder I can see the related Medal Index Card for the soldier listed on familysearch is shown as Thomas Freed.

 

Image courtesy Ancestry

(Like most other ranks, the reverse of the Medal Index Card is blank).

Hope that helps,
Peter

[kenf48]

Constable John Stanislaus Freed was, according to newspaper accounts, killed by a bomb.  His widow Mary Augusta Freed, aged 70,  Knightland House Derry Downs, St Mary Cray died just three weeks later as reported in the Bromley and West Kent Mercury November 8 1940.  Tat report stated her husband died 'suddenly'.

The brief account of PC Freed's death noted that for many years he was a police officer at the House of Commons.  The photograph of the police officer above captioned 'Henry Freed brother of John Stanislaus Freed shows PC 398 and I believe A. 398. The House of Commons Police were part of 'A' Division Metropolitan Police and associated with Cannon Row or "AD'.

He is not wearing any medal ribbons which means the photograph either predates WW1, or he did not serve in the military in the Great War.  I can't find him in the Great War military records.

He was identified as a retired police officer in the 1939 Register and evidently rejoined for the war.

Francis Thomas Freed

10 hours ago, PRC said:

Following Francis through to the 1911 Census of England & Wales finds him aged 36 and the married head of the household at 65, Albert Town, Haverfordwest. He has an occupation that possibly accounts for the uniform he is shown wearing in the photograph – he is an RSPCA inspector.

He was still there in 1921 by which time they had two more children, William born in 1912  and Kathleen born in 1920. He remained an Inspector with the RSPCA, the last prosecution I can find that was presented by him was in 1930.

The Labour Corps BWM and Vm  Medal Roll for Sgt 534057 Francis Thomas Freed shows formerly 28078 Sgt.RFA and the 14-15 Star Roll shows this soldier entered theatre (1) on the  7. 7. 1915 attached to 174 Brigade RFA.  This is incorrect.

 The Pension Ledger referred to confirms this is Francis Thomas Reed, Haverfordwest and is showing  R.H.A.(L.C. indexed as L/Cpl!).  His attestation document though indistinct shows enlistment 14 September 1914 and previous service in the RHA in South African Constabulary time expired. (i.e. Anglo Boer War). He was posted to the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force and embarked for the Dardanelles on the 7th July 1915. he transferred to the L.C.in 1918 extensive records of his service have survived and are on Ancestry confirming beyond doubt he is the RSPCA Inspector identified by Peter.

 

[Ms Morgan]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

The Constable John Stanislaus Freed, Police War Reserve, who died at Chislehurst Police Box, Petts Wood on the 19^th October 1940 was aged 60 according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/3116162/john-stanislaus-freed/

 

If that man was born in England & Wales then the most likely birth was that of a John Stanislaus Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, which was registered with the civil authorities In the Wantage District of Berkshire in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1880.

 

So when the 1881 Census of England & Wales was taken on the 3^rd April the most likely match was a 7 month old John Freed, born Hendred, Berkshire, who was recorded in a dwelling in East Hendred. That area fell within the Wantage Civil Registration District for the recording of Births, Marriages and Deaths.

 

Head of the household was his married mother Mary Freed, aged 36 and born Loose, Kent.

 

Other children in the household are:-

Francis Freed, aged 5, born Faringdon, Berkshire.The birth of a Francis Thomas Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, was registered with the civil authorities in the Faringdon District in Q3 1875.

Thomas Freed, aged 4, born Hendred. The birth of a Thomas Nicholas Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, was registered with the civil authorities in the Wantage District in Q3 1876.

Constance, aged 2, born Hendred. The birth of a Mary Constance Freed, mothers’ maiden name Jones, was registered with the civil authorities in the Wantage District in Q4 1878.

Following Francis through to the 1911 Census of England & Wales finds him aged 36 and the married head of the household at 65, Albert Town, Haverfordwest. He has an occupation that possibly accounts for the uniform he is shown wearing in the photograph – he is an RSPCA inspector. He lives there with his wife of 1 year, Elizabeth, aged 26 and born Barnesbury, London, and their 3 month old daughter.

 

 

 

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

 

FindMyPast look like they have transcribed a Medal Roll for a Francis Thomas Freed, but aren’t showing an associated Medal Index Card. I don’t subscribe so can’t investigate further.

 

Familysearch don’t have online accress to the actual documents but they are showing surviving burnt series service records for a Frank Freed, born East Hendred, Berkshire and resident Worcester Park, Surrey. 

 

He joined the Royal Fusiliers in 1914 with regimental service number G/5679. He was serving with The Buffs, East Kent Regiment when he was discharged in 1919 – regimental service number G/12652. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBG-F6DS

 

Ancestry have service records for a Francis Thomas Freed, a medal roll entry in that name, and what looks like a related pension ledger. Unfortunately not a subscriber there either, but as a free account holder I can see the related Medal Index Card for the soldier listed on familysearch is shown as Thomas Freed.

 

 

 

 

Image courtesy Ancestry

 

(Like most other ranks, the reverse of the Medal Index Card is blank).

 

Hope that helps,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

This is the RSPCA uniform for WW2.   I haven’t been able to find any image of the earlier WW1 equivalent, but cap and collar insignia is unlikely to have changed much, if at all.

Edited 1 May , 2024 by FROGSMILE