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Joseph Carr


mikem

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This is my Great Grandfather Joseph Carr, born 1888 in the North East of England, I can find no WW1 military record of him but I have this picture in uniform wearing what looks like the War Medal and Victory Medal ribbons can anyone identify the cap badge?

As he only the War and Victory Medal I suspect he didn't go overseas. his brother Septimius Hudspeth Carr DCM MM fought in France with the 12th Northumberland Fusiliers.

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He would have to had left his native shore to receive medals. Ergo, he did serve overseas. 

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It looks like a fusilier cap badge, but it doesn’t follow that he served in the same regiment in both wars.

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Any biographical details you can add, any middle name etc  will help the experts.

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Northumberland Fusiliers and WW2 battle dress of 1937 pattern.  He looks like a WW2 Local Defence Volunteer (LDV - later the Home Guard).  The real life version of Dad’s Army’s Cpl Jones.  The LDV had a lot of WW1 veterans, especially early on when invasion seemed imminent/likely after the Dunkirk evacuation.

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thanks for the quick response Michelle and Frogsmile, that makes sense re LDV he would have been over 50 in 1939, would they have worn a regimental cap badge? was there not a LDV badge? He didn't have a middle name that I'm aware of, he worked on the Tyne as a Coal Trimmer.

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16 hours ago, mikem said:

Thanks for the quick response Michelle and Frogsmile, that makes sense re LDV he would have been over 50 in 1939, would they have worn a regimental cap badge? was there not a LDV badge? He didn't have a middle name that I'm aware of, he worked on the Tyne as a Coal Trimmer.

Each LDV/HG unit wore the cap badge of its local regiment, Mike (in Dad’s Army on TV they were from fictional Walmington on Sea - supposedly Kent Coast - and so portrayed as the Royal West Kent Regiment).  This was an outcome of lessons from WW1, when the equivalent home defence force did not become affiliated to local regiments to wear their insignia until July 1918.  Many units had still not received their badges before the Armistice and so were wearing a mixture of original Volunteer Training Corps insignia and the General Service cap badge (Sovereign’s coat of arms). 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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16 hours ago, mikem said:

This is my Great Grandfather Joseph Carr, born 1888 in the North East of England, I can find no WW1 military record of him but I have this picture in uniform wearing what looks like the War Medal and Victory Medal ribbons can anyone identify the cap badge?

As he only the War and Victory Medal I suspect he didn't go overseas. his brother Septimius Hudspeth Carr DCM MM fought in France with the 12th Northumberland Fusiliers.

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The medal ribbons show that he did serve overseas during WW1, but just that he did not arrive in France until 1916 at the earliest.  You should be able to trace his service via medal rolls although only with basic information unless his service record is one of the very few that survived WW2 bombing.  He might well have been in the same regiment as his brother, albeit perhaps in a different battalion, but not necessarily so.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thanks Frogsmile, you've given me a lot to go on, found two possibles in the medal indexes 20/717 and 831, will also request Home Guard records from the MOD

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17 hours ago, mikem said:

This is my Great Grandfather Joseph Carr, born 1888 in the North East of England

As has already been alluded to most of the Great War service records were lost in WW2 when German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they were stored. That being the case any more biographical details you feel able to share might help tease out any surviving service details.

I wasn't sure if that was a precise year of birth or a calculated one, so took a look at the General Registrars Office Index of births in England & Wales for a period covering a year either side. That turned up 16 births of a Joseph Carr with no middle name, of which 8 were in areas traditionally associated with the North-East like Gateshead, South Shields and Tynemouth.

So if you can tell us anything more about his life - it doesn't have to be everything or day month and year precise - but items like:-
Where was he born.
Who were his parents? Did he have siblings?
Where was he brought up?
Who, where and when did he marry?
Children - born when and where?
When and where did he die?

If he can be firmly placed in the civil records then it can often help - if only by weeding out the alternative candidates. Of course quite understand if you don't wish to share that kind of information in open forum :)

Cheers,
Peter

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Hi Peter

I have no problem with sharing the information

Where was he born. he was born 12 March 1884 registered in Tynemouth
Who were his parents? Did he have siblings? Parents were Francis and Ann (nee Nixon) Carr; 11 siblings
Where was he brought up? he lived as a child with his parents in a village called Chirton (Between Tynemouth and North Shields)
Who, where and when did he marry? Married Florence May Miller, in Tynemouth in 1905; Mary Wright in Tynemouth in 1945
Children - born when and where? 4 Children all born in Tynemouth between 1906 - 1915
When and where did he die? 2 June 1958, Tynemouth buried in Holy Cross Cemetery, Wallsend with his second wife Mary

 

Any assistance gratefully received

 

cheers 

Mike

Edited by mikem
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23 minutes ago, mikem said:

4 Children all born in Tynemouth between 1906 - 1915

Can I take it that the last of these was Florrie May Carr, mothers' maiden name Miller, whose birth was registered in the Tynemouth District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1915?

If so, have you ever obtained a birth certificate for her? Father's occupation at that point would be what you'd be looking for. If he was still working down the mines it would be unlikely the Army would have accepted him as a recruit subsequently, other than perhaps in one of the Tunnelling Companys of the Royal Engineers. Otherwise miners who had volunteered earlier in the war were already being returned to civilian employ as Army Reservists, their work being seen as of more value to the war effort.  Of course should their work prove unsatisfactory or they breached the conditions - walking off the job to take employment at a better paying pit for example - the Reservists could be recalled to the ranks.

And if he was already serving then he may simply be described as "A soldier", or it may show "Service number, rank and regiment \ corps", or every other variation in between!

Later in the war following the massive losses inflicted by the German Spring Offensive the Government did lift the work exemption from conscription for miners but by agreement with the unions this was restricted to young single men who'd joined the industry since the war began. Even then it still caused a great deal of resentment.

The General Registrars Office have recently introduced a no-frills £2.50 option to get a screen-shot of the entry in the birth registrer. If the birth of Florrie is in the scope of such certificates being available then I understand the service is very, very quick. Website is here - you do need to set up an account, (no financial details requested) and it's usually easiest to use the "Search the GRO indexes" option to find the individual you are interested in. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates

The other potentially useful piece of information from the certificate is where the family were then living - either because that is where the child was born, (most births of this era occurred at home) and \ or the address of the informant, which is most commonly the mother or father.

I see from the 1911 Census of England & Wales that Joseph, Florence May, and their three children were living at 15 Sibthorpe Street, North Shields. Joseph incidentally gives his birthplace as Percy Main, which is the small village, now part of North Shields, where the family were recorded living on the 1891 & 1901 Censuses of England & Wales. Although I don't subscribe to FindMyPast I can see from the indexing that Joseph also gave Percy Main as his place of birth on the 1921 Census of England & Wales.  Fuller details will be available via subscription, although individual census returns can also be purchased.

And with an address from the 1911 Census, the 1915 birth certificate and the 1921 Census you will then have a better idea of where he might turn up on the 1918 Absent Voters List. The 1918 Representation of the Peoples Act is nowadays remembered for extending the vote to some women. But it's greater impact at that time was to massively extend the male franchise. And with no new Electoral Registers produced in the UK since 1915, they needed an enormous update. Many of the voters were away from their normal place of residence - either serving in the armed forces or working in munitions. So for that year in particular the Absent Voters List take on a greater significance. Put together in a hurry, often with service details provided by other family members, it was far from complete, and some councils tried to produce revised ones later in the year. The two big hurdles are finding out where someone might have regarded themselves as ordinarily resident and then whether the Absent Voters Lists have survived. Our parent site has more on how this source can help. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Tieing down the area where he might have been ordinarily resident during the period he was serving is also likely to make a search of sources like the British Newspaper Archive, (subscription but often free to access at your local public library if you are in the UK). I've had the quickest of looks as a non-subscriber but searches for Carr\Joseph Carr in the wartime period brings up an awful lot of matches.

Alternatively I hope someone has better luck than me with the military sources and can get you straight to details of his military service :)

Cheers,
Peter

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Peter that is brilliant, Florrie is my grandmother after a search for her Birth Certificate it says Private 1st Tyneside Scottish (Coal Trimmer) which make Carr, Joseph Sgt. 20/717 a good contender.

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26 minutes ago, mikem said:

Florrie is my grandmother after a search for her Birth Certificate it says Private 1st Tyneside Scottish (Coal Trimmer) which make Carr, Joseph Sgt. 20/717 a good contender.

Even more so as that soldier only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. Because of that the only ranks shown on his MiC is the highest one he reached while serving in a Theatre of War. If it is him then his service as a Senior NCO also seems to have counted in his favour when it came to the LDV in WW2.

That service number would indicate one of the original members of the Battalion on it's formation in October 1914. It didn't go to France until January 1916, so again an indication of why only the Victory Medal and British War Medal would be awarded. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/northumberland-fusiliers/

The Battalion was disbanded in France in January 1918. If you have access to Ancestry it might be worthwhile checking the entry on the Medal Roll for him to see if it gives details of who else he served with. If the clerk completing the roll followed the instructions, (sadly not all did), then the entry should record all units he served with in Theatres of War. Of course if he had been medically evacuated to the UK he may have only served with the 20th (1st Tyneside Scottish) Battalion.

Have you had a look at the pictures on this website for a potential match for Joseph? http://www.tyneside-scottish.co.uk/1Bn1914.html

The authors of a book on the Tyneside Scottish were \ are members of the forum but not sure of their forum names.

Realise it's not a definate yet, but so glad you didn't have to work through all that hit-list in order to find a strong candidate :)

Cheers,
Peter

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2 hours ago, PRC said:

Even more so as that soldier only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. Because of that the only ranks shown on his MiC is the highest one he reached while serving in a Theatre of War. If it is him then his service as a Senior NCO also seems to have counted in his favour when it came to the LDV in WW2.

That service number would indicate one of the original members of the Battalion on it's formation in October 1914. It didn't go to France until January 1916, so again an indication of why only the Victory Medal and British War Medal would be awarded. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/northumberland-fusiliers/

The Battalion was disbanded in France in January 1918. If you have access to Ancestry it might be worthwhile checking the entry on the Medal Roll for him to see if it gives details of who else he served with. If the clerk completing the roll followed the instructions, (sadly not all did), then the entry should record all units he served with in Theatres of War. Of course if he had been medically evacuated to the UK he may have only served with the 20th (1st Tyneside Scottish) Battalion.

Have you had a look at the pictures on this website for a potential match for Joseph? http://www.tyneside-scottish.co.uk/1Bn1914.html

The authors of a book on the Tyneside Scottish were \ are members of the forum but not sure of their forum names.

Realise it's not a definate yet, but so glad you didn't have to work through all that hit-list in order to find a strong candidate :)

Cheers,
Peter

Brilliant work in your inimitable style Peter!

For Mike:  the Tyneside Scottish and Tyneside Irish each formed a ‘square brigade’ (4 x battalions) whose parent regiment was the Northumberland Fusiliers.  Of the two only the Tyneside Scottish had a special cap badge of their own.  No kilt** or tartan trews, just a Scottish bonnet.

**apart from pipers.

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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to assist

medal roll from Ancestry

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listed in the nominal roll of other ranks in (Tyneside Scottish) by John Sheen and Graham Stewart  20th Bn   to 18th Bn class z reserves

only one Jos Carr listed in the 20th Bn nominal roll  which indicates you have the correct man

 

Ray

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1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

only one Jos Carr listed in the 20th Bn nominal roll  which indicates you have the correct man

Thanks Ray,

I was hoping there would be some way to confirm there was only one Joseph Carr in the original 20th Battalion, (the name being relatively common in that neck of the woods looking at the civil records), and I think that nails it.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Senior moment :-)
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@mikem - the retention of his 20th Battalion service number when he served with the 18th Battalion is likely to be an indicator that he moved Battalions solely as a result of the 20th disbanding.

Battalion War Diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of their online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.

The 20th Battalion War Diary can be found here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353904

The 18th Battalion War Diary can be found here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353876

Unlikely he will be mentioned by name, but at least it will give you some idea of where they were and what they were up to.

Cheers,
Peter

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overwhelmed by the response and level of information provided, as with all research looks like my initial research into the 62nd Division has grown with the 34th Division now being another avenue to look at.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my query, off to try and find a reproduction of that recruitment poster for my office.

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14 minutes ago, mikem said:

overwhelmed by the response and level of information provided, as with all research looks like my initial research into the 62nd Division has grown with the 34th Division now being another avenue to look at.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to my query, off to try and find a reproduction of that recruitment poster for my office.

It’s good that you have been able to identify from a standing start photo of a Local Defence Volunteer (Home Guard) in WW2, that your forebear was also with the Tyneside Scottish during ‘the first half’.  If you haven’t already discovered it I thought you might find this web history of interest: http://www.tyneside-scottish.co.uk/1Bn1914.html

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On 22/03/2024 at 17:31, PRC said:

@mikem - the retention of his 20th Battalion service number when he served with the 18th Battalion is likely to be an indicator that he moved Battalions solely as a result of the 20th disbanding...

I don't think that is correct.

Surely, a posting to another battalion of the same regiment doesn't result in a new service number.

Perhaps if the terms of service change, but not for a simple posting.

Happy to be corrected.

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