Unknown RAF unit in Russia 1920

[Guest exexpat]

Rob,

Many thanks indeed. The CWGC records showed him buried in Sevastopol British Cemetery which I think was near the Cathcart Hill Crimean War British Cemetery. This was severely damaged during WW2 and finally demolished in the 50s when houses were built in the area. He is memorialised at Haida Pasha in Istanbul.

A fascinating unit and the current 47 Sqn RAF can be proud of such forebearers.

[RFT]

Hello exexpat

Do you have a family connection with Frank Oliver Freeman or does he form part of a general research topic for you?

You may be interested to know that 331019 F P Freeman is also listed as an AC2 with 47 Squadron as indeed was 105524 A Freeman.

I have often wondered if 331019 has been entered incorrectly in the records (being so close to that of 331013 F O Freeman!), consequently these two names may perhaps be one and the same.

Rob.

[kenripper]

I am researching the life of James Thomas GARVEY (c1895 - 24 Dec 1919). This is on behalf Syd Garvey, now aged 91, son of James Thomas Garvey. Syd was born just six weeks before his father was killed. Syd went on to work on aircraft during WW2, on projects such as the redesign of the undercarriage of the Supermarine Seafire.

The CWGC site tells me "Name: GARVEY, JAMES THOMAS - Initials: J T - Nationality: United Kingdom - Rank: Aircraftman 2nd Class - Regiment: Royal Air Force - Date of Death: 24/12/1919 - Service No: 331023 - Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead - Cemetery: Haidar Pasha Memorial, Istanbul".

James had previously been a member of the Army Service Corps. He was married on 10 July 1916 in Hintlesham, Suffolk:

James Thomas Garvey, age 21, bachelor, of Ipswich, private in Army Service Corps, son of Charles Garvey a timber porter

to

Daisy Louisa Leeks, age 20, spinster, of Hintlesham, mother's name Sarah Agnes Osborne

Witnesses: Isaac Osborne & Margaret Garvey

.. I have not been able to show that James' family came from Ipswich and suspect that he was stationed there, having joined the army some while earlier.

I have not been able to identify his service record or other documents using ancestry.com military documents, except his medal roll which can be seen on my website at http://www.kenripper...t.co.uk/jtg.jpg . I am attempting to determine his home town and next of kin at the time of his enlistment into the RASC.

Can anybody please help me locate his enlistment papers? Did they transfer with him to form part of his RAF record? Where would they be now? How can I access them? The medal roll card has been annotated A / E / 792539 / 1. Can you help explain this annotation for me?

Syd has never known much about his father's family or his father's efforts during WW1 and given Syd's advancing years I'd very much like to resolve this for him soon. Syd married Hilda Lucas who is my wife's father's cousin. Although Hilda has now died, they both still hold very special memories for my wife and me.

Thank you in anticipation of any assistance you can offer.

Ken

[David_Underdown]

I would have expectted given his date of death that his RAF service record would be in AIR 79 at The National Archives, however, their research guide, http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/airmanraf.htm?WT.lp=rg-3194 states that they only have documents for those with service numbers up to 329000, which suggests his record may still be with MOD at the moment. Since you are researchign for his son, you should be able to get hold of it throught he veterans' agency at the MOD - details are on their website somewhere. However, this probably won't contain a copy of his original attestation papers, but there may be an outline of his previous service.

[kenripper]

Thanks for your help, David.

After a few phone calls I eventually found the archive where these records will be, if they exist at all. In the first instance they will inform an enquirer to contact the National Archive because the RAF hold records from 1920 onwards and as service ended in 1919 then the record has to be at the National Archive. This isn’t the whole story as the RAF also maintain an anomalous section of service numbered records greater than 329000 where the airman (i.e. not an officer) did not serve in WW2.

[RFT]

Hello kenripper

I have a snippet of information which may be useful:

331023 J T Garvey, AC2 (Batman), 47 Squadron RAF, South Russia.

Embarked Novorossisk, South Russia, 9th July 1919.

Reported for duty at Ekaterinodar, South Russia, 11th July, 1919; Mr Garvey being one of the 176 'Volunteers'.

RAF Medal Index card is on-line at WO/372/7. This confirms he was Acting Corporal.

J T Garvey's widow lived at 4 Elliott Street, Ipswich (1920).

With his permission, I would very much like to make mention of Mr S Garvey (plus any other details) in my 47 Squadron compilation, which specifically targets the 'other ranks' of this illustrious squadron.

Other than my father, this is the only time I have come across the son of one of the 'other ranks'.

Please pass on my best regards to Mr S. Garvey.

Rob.

[kenripper]

Hello Rob

Thanks for the info. Every little helps.

I published the medal index card on my website at http://www.kenripper.btinternet.co.uk/jtg.jpg and this showed a rank of AC2 which I interpreted as Aircraftman, rather than Acting Corporal. Am I wrong about this?

Syd Garvey is following this conversation on his PC, although he's not registered as a contributor. I am sure he would have no objection at all if you were to to make mention of Mr James Thomas Garvey (and even the fact that Syd was researching his father's details in 2011!) in your 47 Squadron compilation, which specifically targets the 'other ranks' of this illustrious squadron. I'll let you know if he raises any reservations, but I am very confident that he will have none.

Many thanks again.

Ken

[RFT]

Hello Ken

Mr Garvey was an Aircraftman 2nd Class and his service number was among a batch issued March-Aug 1919.

A good number of the other ranks who volunteered for service in South Russia (with No 47) were new recruits.

I checked the Army Medal Index Cards for J T Garvey and his RAF medal card appeared. The card states he was acting corporal.

You may like to check again to be sure for there were about 35 James Garvey's mentioned.

Does Mr S Garvey have a photo of his father? I, for one, would welcome the opportunity of seeing it if at all possible.

Regards

Rob

PS Have just checked Medal Index Card for J T Garvey (not James Garvey) and this confirms 'acting corporal'.

[john-g]

Found this in AIR10 s/n 33500 was Burnley S Rigger d/j 05/07/16, other numbers are to high to check, not listed.

john_g

www.66squadron.co.uk

[kenripper]

Found this in AIR10 s/n 33500 was Burnley S Rigger d/j 05/07/16, other numbers are to high to check, not listed.

john_g

www.66squadron.co.uk

Hello john_g

Sorry for the delay in responding but the number in which I am interested is 331023. Did you, perchance, accidentally leave a digit out when you typed the number 33500?

Thanks

Ken

[kenripper]

Thanks to all for their help so far, but I've still not located James Thomas Garvey's service record(s). He may have two, I guess. One for his RASC service up to Jul 1919 and another for his RAF service for the period to Dec 1919 when he died of typhus. I'm off to the National Archive in Kew in the next week or two to see what help they can offer. The RAF records base in Sleaford have reopened the search having told me on the phone that they do have these records and then sent a letter to Syd saying they don't.

I've posted a pdf of my progress to date on my website here. There are two images of James Thomas Garvey here, which may interest Rob. One is at his wedding in 1916 when he was in his RASC uniform. The second was probably in 1919 and I suspect was just before he left for Russia. In this second photo he was in civvies but his two colleagues were in uniform, but I've no idea which regiments they were with. If anyone can add to the story I'd be most interested.

Ken

[kenripper]

Thanks to all for their help so far, but I've still not located James Thomas Garvey's service record(s). He may have two, I guess. One for his RASC service up to Jul 1919 and another for his RAF service for the period to Dec 1919 when he died of typhus. I'm off to the National Archive in Kew in the next week or two to see what help they can offer. The RAF records base in Sleaford have reopened the search having told me on the phone that they do have these records and then sent a letter to Syd saying they don't.

RAF Sleaford have found the records for James Thomas Garvey. They have a section of records which the front line records handling staff aren't generally aware of but does include airmen and aircraftmen from the period 1919-1923ish. We await results of this discovery. It will be interesting to see if they have just RAF records or whether his RASC records are with the RAF papers.

[RFT]

Hello Ken,

Thanks for posting the photos of Mr Garvey and pals.

Would like to know a little more from the RAF service record, if you will oblige.

Regards,

Rob.

[Cbeattie114@gmail.com]

My Grandfather flew a Short 184 Bomber in (I suspect) South Russia 1919-20. I'm trying to find which Sqn he was with. I have two group shots from that period...too large for this site.

[Cbeattie114@gmail.com]

Can anyone identify members of this Group. Seated left is Charles Alexander Beattie my grandfather. The image was likely taken in South Russia.

[corisande]

I am researching a Canadian RAF Lt, Herbert Whitfield Minish, who was posted to South Russia. The relevant bit of his RAF file is

 

 

 

Are the Canadians present in this posting part of a political "Canadians as part of the RAF" thing (from reading elsewhere)

 

Minish was a late entrant to RAF via CEF and British Army, and I wsa surprised that he was kept on till Sep 1920, when so many othe RAF officers were discharged long before this date On leving the RAF on this date he gets an undercover posting to Ireland!

[robins2]

in case you do not have his Cdn records, they can be found here:  http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=184804

 

regards

 

Bob R.

[robins2]

11 hours ago, corisande said:

I am researching a Canadian RAF Lt, Herbert Whitfield Minish, who was posted to South Russia. The relevant bit of his RAF file is

 

 

 

Are the Canadians present in this posting part of a political "Canadians as part of the RAF" thing (from reading elsewhere)

 

Minish was a late entrant to RAF via CEF and British Army, and I wsa surprised that he was kept on till Sep 1920, when so many othe RAF officers were discharged long before this date On leving the RAF on this date he gets an undercover posting to Ireland!

as for the political, explained here:http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo8/no3/moffat-eng.asp

[corisande]

Thanks for the link to the political explanation. I had only read earlier reports by the Canadians during the war itself, where they asked for Canadian squadrons, but were rebuffed. Your link gives a fairly full explanation as to the Canadian position after the end of the war

 

I did have his Canadian papers, but what I was looking at was more this 1920 time, as he went on to do undercover work in Ireland a few months later

[wrightdw]

On 27/11/2010 at 02:08, bushfighter said:

Chaz Bowyer's interesting book RAF Operations 1918-1938 includes a chapter titled Russian Interlude.

I quote from page 49:

"In one year of almost non-stop operations over southern Russia the men of No 47/'A' Squadron(s) were awarded totals of four DSOs, two OBEs, two MBEs, sixteen DFCs and one Bar to the DFC, three AFCs, thirteen Meritorious Service Medals (MSMs) and a flock of 75 Russian orders and decorations of various sorts."

Harry

 

Bowyers stats are way off, there were many more decorations awarded than those listed, there were five DFC Bars as an example, one of whom also got the DSO in South Russia 1919-20.

 

Lets also remember that No.'s 221 and 266 Squadrons flew seaplanes and DH9's during operations against the Bolsheviks over the Caspian 1919 and could be buried or commemorated at Haidar Pasha.

 

 

Edited 15 October , 2018 by wrightdw

[James A Pratt III]

The book "Gone to Russia to Fight" is a very good account of the RAF in South Russia. Note the RAF did not have any plans to bomb Moscow.

[researchingreg]

On 15/10/2018 at 02:41, wrightdw said:

 

Bowyers stats are way off, there were many more decorations awarded than those listed, there were five DFC Bars as an example, one of whom also got the DSO in South Russia 1919-20.

 

Lets also remember that No.'s 221 and 266 Squadrons flew seaplanes and DH9's during operations against the Bolsheviks over the Caspian 1919 and could be buried or commemorated at Haidar Pasha.

 

 

One of the DFC's was won by Eric Edward Spencer Wheatley (an Observer) awarded in November 1919 for artillery observation and for bombing/strafing attacks at low level between April and October 1919. He had previously been wounded while serving with 47 Squadron in Salonika on 9 May 1917. He was my father-in-law's commanding officer in WW2 and I think he must have influenced him to join the ATA when he (my father-in-law) was invalided out of military service in 1941.

 

[wrightdw]

On 16/10/2018 at 21:19, researchingreg said:

One of the DFC's was won by Eric Edward Spencer Wheatley (an Observer) awarded in November 1919 for artillery observation and for bombing/strafing attacks at low level between April and October 1919. He had previously been wounded while serving with 47 Squadron in Salonika on 9 May 1917. He was my father-in-law's commanding officer in WW2 and I think he must have influenced him to join the ATA when he (my father-in-law) was invalided out of military service in 1941.

 

 

Thanks Greg, Wheatley's DFC was for North Russia, Archangel (as opposed to South Russia/Crimea where 47/221/266 Sqn's operated):

WHEATLEY, Obs. Off. Edward Eric Spencer, D.F.C., (R.Arty.) R.A.F. (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 18^th November 1919) “Has rendered valuable services in artillery observation from low altitudes, having been mentioned several times for this work. During the operations on the Dwina in June, 1919, he carried out many contact patrols, flying very low over the heads of the enemy, keeping our headquarters constantly and accurately informed as to the position.”