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Remembered Today:

Private Henry T Hynd, 56820, Cheshire Regiment


BLCHS

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I coordinate a community history society, we are now investigating the military service of the men from the village in greater detail, and we intend to present the research to the village in the future.

Currently, I am collating all this information in an effort to run a guided tour of the Somme Battlefields specifically about this small group of men that left a big hole in the community maybe later this year or in 2025. 

Harry Hynd was well know village member, he and his wife (Alice Sarah Amelia, Morgan) lived in the village watermill. He is primarily remembered for being a nurseryman growing roses (Harkness Roses, Hitchin).

After the normal Ancestry/Find my Past/TNA checks we believe his correct name is Henry Turnball Hynd (jnr) and is recorded with military service as:

Private Henry T Hynd, 56820, Cheshire Regiment

I can find no enlistment information only his medal card. 

I am sure there should also be enlistment documents and medical records as 'Harry' had lost a foot reportedly in WW1!

Any advice on why my searches do not find the records I expected?.. yes I appreciate he may have lost his foot post WW1, and it may be wrongly attributed but I need to do my 'due diligence' as they say.

 

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FMP have his Medal cards miss indexed under "Turnbull-Hynd" These indicate 2 Battalion Cheshire Regiment [Image/s courtesy FMP/Ancestry]

image.png

Pension records exist on Fold3 (I don't have access) but again these are miss indexed under "Hynd-Turnbull" via Ancestry.

image.png

 

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56820, Cheshire Regt

MIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND

From WFA/Fold3 ...

Oh the name variants at the Ministry of Pensions and all as 58620, Cheshire Regt. !!! [So perhaps worth also looking more widely under this alternative Cheshire No.]

PIC as: Hynd Henry TURNBULL - also showing Bedfords but no number [likely a former regiment - potentially into whom he enlisted ???] - this one appears his initial claim = discharged with a Z reference 29.3.19, A loss of foot would seem an unlikely disability for a Z Reservist. Awarded 11/- pw from 30.3.19 to 30.3.20  [11/- pw was the pension Class V soldier/Pte rate for a 40% degree of disability ... which the MoP guide shows as might be Loss of thumb or of four fingers of right hand - C/w loss of a foot being 50%, or more if a higher amputation]. 

PIC as: Henry HYND-TURNBULL

PIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND - Also shows Former Regtl. No. 22136 [perhaps for the Bedfordshire Regt - potentially into whom he enlisted ???]

PIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND - Shows claim was by/on 14-5-24, DEAD [not necessarily the man being dead] - if man was not dead [and this seems unlikely] then a loss of foot would typically remain lost and continue to be paid for [loss of toes would likely be classed as a 'Specified Minor Injury' and a gratuity paid to end a claim but this injury or route is not seen on any of the PIC]

M

Edit: given the MIC it would be worth looking for the Medal Roll for his Cheshire number

Edited by Matlock1418
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4 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

FMP have his Medal cards miss indexed under "Turnbull-Hynd" These indicate 2 Battalion Cheshire Regiment [Image/s courtesy FMP/Ancestry]

image.png

Pension records exist on Fold3 (I don't have access) but again these are miss indexed under "Hynd-Turnbull" via Ancestry.

image.png

 

Thank you, never crossed my mind that the 'Turnbull' would be misconstrued as part of his surname.

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3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

From WFA/Fold3 ...

 

With a round 30 more fallen to research is the investment in WFA membership a good idea?

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3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

56820, Cheshire Regt

MIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND

From WFA/Fold3 ...

Oh the name variants at the Ministry of Pensions and all as 58620, Cheshire Regt. !!! [So perhaps worth also looking more widely under this alternative Cheshire No.]

PIC as: Hynd Henry TURNBULL - also showing Bedfords but no number [likely a former regiment - potentially into whom he enlisted ???] - this one appears his initial claim = discharged with a Z reference 29.3.19, A loss of foot would seem an unlikely disability for a Z Reservist. Awarded 11/- pw from 30.3.19 to 30.3.20  [11/- pw was the pension Class V soldier/Pte rate for a 40% degree of disability ... which the MoP guide shows as might be Loss of thumb or of four fingers of right hand - C/w loss of a foot being 50%, or more if a higher amputation]. 

PIC as: Henry HYND-TURNBULL

PIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND - Also shows Former Regtl. No. 22136 [perhaps for the Bedfordshire Regt - potentially into whom he enlisted ???]

PIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND - Shows claim was by/on 14-5-24, DEAD [not necessarily the man being dead] - if man was not dead [and this seems unlikely] then a loss of foot would typically remain lost and continue to be paid for [loss of toes would likely be classed as a 'Specified Minor Injury' and a gratuity paid to end a claim but this injury or route is not seen on any of the PIC]

M

Edit: given the MIC it would be worth looking for the Medal Roll for his Cheshire number

We took the service number from a FMP search, which sourced it from the national archives. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3025729

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3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

PIC as: Hynd Henry TURNBULL - also showing Bedfords but no number [likely a former regiment - potentially into whom he enlisted ???] - this one appears his initial claim = discharged with a Z reference 29.3.19, A loss of foot would seem an unlikely disability for a Z Reservist. Awarded 11/- pw from 30.3.19 to 30.3.20  [11/- pw was the pension Class V soldier/Pte rate for a 40% degree of disability ... which the MoP guide shows as might be Loss of thumb or of four fingers of right hand - C/w loss of a foot being 50%, or more if a higher amputation]. 

PIC as: Henry HYND-TURNBULL

PIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND - Also shows Former Regtl. No. 22136 [perhaps for the Bedfordshire Regt - potentially into whom he enlisted ???]

PIC as: Henry TURNBULL-HYND - Shows claim was by/on 14-5-24, DEAD [not necessarily the man being dead] - if man was not dead [and this seems unlikely] then a loss of foot would typically remain lost and continue to be paid for [loss of toes would likely be classed as a 'Specified Minor Injury' and a gratuity paid to end a claim but this injury or route is not seen on any of the PIC]

M

Edit: given the MIC it would be worth looking for the Medal Roll for his Cheshire number

The Bedfords are the local Regiment, most of the villages fallen were enlisted 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 8th battalions at either Bedford, Luton, or Shefford. Although I have the census records, without the enlistment information following this is a dead end for now.

I have checked the 22136 service number against the other enlistments from the village and although not sequential to any of the other men enlisted with Bedfords, it is not that far away (others being 22671-22674 & 22677 etc).

I have 1 surviving village member who I am told physically saw Harry's 'missing' foot.. I will get clarification as to what degree the injury actually was.

Thank you for your information it has been very helpful.

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59 minutes ago, BLCHS said:

With a round 30 more fallen to research is the investment in WFA membership a good idea?

IMHO With all the other stuff WFA also offers I might suggest it is a 'no-brainer'.

Pension records have been an absolute god-send for so many soldiers' research.

If you get pension records then I'm always happy to help offer interpretation beyond that which is written on them.

55 minutes ago, BLCHS said:

We took the service number from a FMP search, which sourced it from the national archives. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3025729

56820 is on the MIC, and therefore I/we would normally presume was what got impressed on his medals, but I would also suggest seeking the Medal Roll from which the MIC was spawned.

After that it may be a case of making your choice c/w the MoP 58620  [or perhaps you can rule that out by finding that number for another soldier???]

38 minutes ago, BLCHS said:

I have 1 surviving village member who I am told physically saw Harry's 'missing' foot.. I will get clarification as to what degree the injury actually was.

Would be interesting to allow comparison with my interpretation above.

M

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He was one of a large draft of men transferred from the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion Cheshire Regiment on 19/10/1916 and who were then shortly thereafter posted to the 2nd Battalion Cheshire Regiment in Salonika on 06/11/1916.

The men were re-numbered to the Cheshire Regiment in surname alphabetical order - he was in the approximate 2nd half of the draft numbered from 58577 Mead to 58633 Worbey - 57 men - there will be a first half somewhere with men having surnames A to M. The total size of the draft is probably around 100 strong.

Regards

Russ

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Just to confirm - his MIC has been made out with the incorrect number of 56820 - it should be 58620.

Given that his Medals were not returned for adjustment, they will also be impressed with the incorrect number.

Russ

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I have spent a few hours looking into exactly how the confusion with the Turnball/Hynd attributions is occurring.  

 

John Hynd,1808-1840 b. North Leith, Edinburgh  d. Westoe, South Sheilds / Sp. Janet Turnbull 1811-  b. Scotland

Henry Turnbull Hynd, 1833–1875 b. Scotland  d. Bengal, India / Sp. Elizabeth Catherine Rankin 1830–1893

Henry Turnbull Hynd, 1867–1946 B. Raneegunge, India  d. Barton-Le-Clay, Bedfordshire

Henry Turnbull Hynd, 1896–1978 (AKA HARRY) b. South Bersted, West Sussex  d. Barton-Le-Clay, Bedfordshire

data:FMP/Ancestry

Edited by BLCHS
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7 hours ago, BLCHS said:

Harry Hynd was well know village member, he and his wife (Alice Sarah Amelia, Morgan) lived in the village watermill. He is primarily remembered for being a nurseryman growing roses (Harkness Roses, Hitchin).

I think you will find that Alice Sarah Amelia Morgan was his mother. She was married to his father , also Henry Turnbull Hynd

Your Henry was single in 1939 register (living with his parents) and recorded as Single - Nursery Manager and Church Organist

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1 hour ago, RussT said:

Just to confirm - his MIC has been made out with the incorrect number of 56820 - it should be 58620.

Given that his Medals were not returned for adjustment, they will also be impressed with the incorrect number.

But the roll is in the correct number 58620

hynd-1.jpg.9292dc067b6a3b3dbbeccc2e03ffee38.jpg

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25 minutes ago, corisande said:

I think you will find that Alice Sarah Amelia Morgan was his mother. She was married to his father , also Henry Turnbull Hynd

Your Henry was single in 1939 register (living with his parents) and recorded as Single - Nursery Manager and Church Organist

yes, it was corrected in the research, after we found the later family members.. I will correct the post.

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17 minutes ago, corisande said:

But the roll is in the correct number 58620

Yes, I know.

As I said in my post, he is in a block of Cheshire Regiment numbers (taken from their Medal Roll) going from 58577 to 58633, which naturally includes his correct number of 58620.

The MICs were made up by clerical staff using the Medal Roll as a reference. That is why I said his MIC has been made up incorrectly because even though his Roll has his correct number on it of 58620, the clerk who made out his MIC has written the incorrect number of 56820 on it. Mistakes happen. The MICs were used by the Medal Manufacturers to inform them what details are needed to be impressed on his Medals (name, rank, number and Regiment/Corps). Given that his MIC is incorrect, and there is no indication on his MIC for the return of his Medals for adjustment, then it follows that his Medals will also be incorrectly numbered.

I've seen 1000s of MICs with incorrect details. Sometimes this is because the Rolls themselves are incorrect (and therefore also the MICs by default) but also because the MICs are incorrect (as in this case) even though the Roll itself is correct.

There were millions of these MICs being made out - all by hand. It's totally understandable that such errors will exist. What surprises me is how few errors there actually were - which I think is testament to the general diligence the Roll compilers and MIC creators put into the job.

Regards

Russ 

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You can actually see that his MIC and the MICs of the two men directly adjacent to him on the Medal Roll - 58618 Tharby & 58622 Walker have all been made out by the same individual - as evidenced by the same handwriting on all 3 MICs. These 3 MICs were probably created directly one after the other in sequence in one sitting using the Roll as a reference.

But when the clerk made out the MIC for Thurnball-Hynd he was evidently momentarily distracted by something with the consequences that we are only now, more than 100 years later, commenting upon it :blink:

Russ

 

 

56818.jpg

58620.jpg

58622.jpg

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sorry I was unable to post this last night.

20240131_205639.jpg

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12 hours ago, RussT said:

But when the clerk made out the MIC for Thurnball-Hynd he was evidently momentarily distracted by something with the consequences that we are only now, more than 100 years later, commenting upon it 

That is a nifty bit of  lateral thinking and detective work :thumbsup:

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