Gas rattle...

[Andrew Upton]

I recently acquired a gas rattle, and was wondering if anyone knows how to differentiate a WW1 example from a WW2 example.

The rattle I have is stamped on one of the wooden parts with N.C.S.L, as well as /I\ over 79 over G (which I assume stands for GAS).

The handle measures 4.5 inches long, about one inch wide and has 8 sides.

The rattle has a single "tonge" (for want of a better word) measuring 2 inches by 9 inches by 3/16 of an inch thick.

This presses against an wooden cog with 8 points, measuring 1 3/4 inches deep, and 2 1/4 inches point-to-point.

The tongue is protected by two metal plates, top and bottom, painted black, measuring 1 1/2 inches by 11 inches.

At the far end, to give more weight, has been bolted a wooden block measuring 2 inches by 3 3/4 inches by 1 inch deep. This is where the markings are stamped.

The overall appearance is long, thin, and heavy with the single "tongue" and metal plates. As I understand it, longer, thinner, undated rattles with a single tongue are more likely to be WW1 in date, whereas WW2 examples are usually all wood, shorter, chunkier and dated, with two tongues usually.

Can anyone confirm this is true, or if my rattle is WW1/WW2? Anyone know what N.C.S.L stands for, or if the other markings can be deciphered?

Thanks in advance.

[Andrew Upton]

Lots of viewings, but no replies! Do we not have any experts on WW1 gas rattles, or is this something that requires in depth research?

[Max Poilu]

Andrew,

I've seen a few various models - have you a picture you can upload?

[guy taylor]

Andrew

Gas rattles remained standard right through to fairly recent times, therefore yours could quite easily be WW1 AND WW2.

N.C.S.L, is the contractor's mark ( N.S.Co Ltd ?)

The /I\ broad arrow mark is the official acceptance mark, so the 79 over G could be the inspector's marks.

Hope this helps,

Guy

[Andrew Upton]

Giles Poilu:

I took a couple of digital photos of it this afternoon, and will try and post them as soon as I've downloaded them.

Guy Taylor:

Thanks for the information, but as I've been collecting WW1 British equipment for over 6 years now, none of that is new to me!

The mark is definately N.C.S.L, no Ltd or Co. in there!

I know the 79 over G is the inspectors mark - however, I have seen various numbers over the G, but only on WW2 gas rattles, hence I wondered if this stood for gas as has seemed to be the case, and if the same system was used in WW1.

I would also say that it was only just before and during WW2 that gas rattles seem to become standard (all wood, shorter, chunkier and dated, with two tongues usually), with a recognized pattern, dating system, etc - WW1 seems to have a much wider range.

[Andrew Upton]

Picture 1:

[Andrew Upton]

Picture 2:

[Max Poilu]

Andrew,

I am almost certain that is a Great War model. I have one exactly the same dated 1918 along one side of the handle. I have no reason to doubt the date - if there is a standard model of the Great War I would suggest this is it, I have seen 3 or 4 over the years exactly the same, usually dated. Having said that I seem to recall these were perhaps later issued to the ARP and stamped as such?

Have you a copy of Brassey's WW1 British Army? There is a good pic on page 126 of a different model.

Also on page 60 of 'Le Fantassin de la Grand Guerre Pt 2' there is a pic of two models.

[RMAMarshall]

Andrew,

My example is also of the same pattern as yours, again dated 1918 on the handle. All the WW2 examples I have seen are squat with a curved frame; the metal fittings also appear to have been galvanized. No reason why they couldn't be reissued later, though I doubt anyone would go through the bother of re-marking them - afterall, they already bear a war dept. arrow.

Richard

[Andrew Upton]

RMAMarshall and Giles Poilu:

Thanks for the information - your replies sent me scurrying to pour over the handle with a magnifying glass, but sadly if any date was stamped there the long passage of time and much handling has made it disappear

Ah, well, I'll console myself over the fact its definately correct for WW1, and only cost me £2 essentially!

[harribobs]

if it's any help, i used to have a WW2 model when i was young ( we painted it red and white and used it at OT)

it was certainly very different to yours

[Simon Jones]

I looked at the surviving files on gas rattles many years ago at the National Archives, in WO142/93. The rattle illustrated is the type introduced in 1918, hence most having this date stamped along the wooden handle. The metal frame was introduced owing to warping of the wooden frames in the trenches. I have seen the earlier all wood type with both WW1 and WW2 dates (ie 1938 onwards). The wooden type was based on an existing design of Police rattle.

Incidentally, gas sentries used rattles to warn against shell gas and compressed air strombos horns for cloud gas.

Regards

Simon

[Max Poilu]

Simon,

Good stuff, IIRC all the examples I saw were 1918 dated so that tallies up.

[Andrew Upton]

Anyone know what N.C.S.L stands for, or if the other markings can be deciphered? Thanks in advance.

N.C.S.L, is the contractor's mark ( N.S.Co Ltd ?) The /I\ broad arrow mark is the official acceptance mark, so the 79 over G could be the inspector's marks. Hope this helps, Guy

Giving this one a bit of a bump, from a recent example listed on Ebay identically but more clearly marked I have only just learned that the makers mark is A.N.Co.S.Ltd - being the Army and Navy Co-Operative Society Limited. Only took me seven years to find out the answer...

[Wardog]

I have 2 of these, one unmarked, one 1918.  After a single long whistle blast I use the unmarked one every Thursday at 2000 hrs. It probably served during the Spanish flu and its doing its bit now. Regards, Paul.

Well-delighted to find a marking next to the single nut on the end block similar to Andrew's- Arrow-over possible number over a letter that could be G. Very faint but this old boy at last gives up its military details.

Edited 30 April , 2020 by Wardog

[GWF1967]

4 hours ago, Wardog said:

I have 2 of these, one unmarked, one 1918.  After a single long whistle blast I use the unmarked one every Thursday at 2000 hrs. It probably served during the Spanish flu and its doing its bit now. Regards, Paul.

Well-delighted to find a marking next to the single nut on the end block similar to Andrew's- Arrow-over possible number over a letter that could be G. Very faint but this old boy at last gives up its military details.

Any chance of a photo Wardog? -  Andrew Upton's pictures have long since disappeared.

Edited 1 May , 2020 by GWF1967

[Andrew Upton]

I still have mine if it's any help!

 

Edit - and with a bit of a search, I think I even found the original pictures still on my computer:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 May , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[bigjohn]

Reminds me of school woodwork remember having to make one😣

[GWF1967]

6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

I still have mine if it's any help!

 

Edit - and with a bit of a search, I think I even found the original pictures still on my computer:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many thanks Andrew. 

[Gunner Bailey]

All the WW2 Gas Rattles I've seen have a makers mark, ARP and a date stamped (normally in the range 1938 -1940) in them.

 

I'd say yours is WW1 

[Wardog]

Top one is in use at the moment, very faint marking left of nut.

Newly found markings on top one. Bottom two pictures are lower one.

Edited 1 May , 2020 by Wardog

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, Wardog said:

Top one is in use at the moment, very faint marking left of nut.

Newly found markings on top one. Bottom two pictures are lower one.

Thanks for posting. Very nice items. 

[Wardog]

I've looked at the faint mark and it is possibly /I\ over 79 over G as on Andrews. This seems to be a mark found on others mentioned on the net. On the other one-W.B Limited, I think I have seen another maker in the past but I'm unable to remember what it was. Regards, Paul.