47th London Division

[Guest RussellR]

Hi Charles

Thanks for your offer re the photo of Arthur - as you suggest I will email you separately on this.

Unfortunately I didn't record the exact details of the microfilm as it was only the Tooting connection which intrigued me and I took the copies for possible future interest. However, I did find my grandfather's records in WO363 R1163. Alternatively he may have been in WO364 3289. Luckily, there are not too many files to look through, though the alphabet used is a little dodgy!

Regards

Russell

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Hi Russell - Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the additional info on RSM Ridout. As you may have gathered from above in this thread I am also trying to research him - as RSM he was one of the key personalties for the battalion that I am researching.

Do you by any chance have the microfilm reference number for his service record? I woulnt mind a look next time I am in the PRO.

I do have a group photo of 1/19th senior NCOs taken probably early 1916 in which he is seated in the centre of the front row. Russell and ChrisB - please email me off forum and I would be happy to email you a scan.

Charles

[sixbeethree]

Hello

Are you able to look up 16 Nov 1915 when the 3rd London in particular the 1/3 London were attached to 47th .

Thank you.

[A crooked MP]

This book by Maude is online free at

http://www.archive.org/details/47thlondondivisi00maudrich

cheers

[HugoT]

Hello, I'm writing this message a few years later but I wanted to know if you could give me any information on a specific subject. A few days ago, a message hidden in lipstick was discovered. Found on the battlefield near Albert, the message requesting artillery fire from a certain "RSM RIDOUT" drew me to this forum. I hope you can tell me more about this person ^^. As far as I know, this message was written on 15 September 1916.

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I'm not sure if the artefact is yours or if you are just letting us know about it, but there are some anomalies I hope you can clear up.  The simplest way would be to post a clear image of the message, acquired via a scanner or clear overhead photograph.  Your image has the point of focus on the lipstick, not the message.

1. I've seen many battlefield finds, or images thereof.  After 100 years of snow, ice, torrential rain, mud, baking heat, ploughing, vehicles etc I struggle to believe anything folded and placed in a tube of lipstick would survive life in a cupboard, let alone lying buried or on the surface of a field near Albert.  I have a 1918 signal message and it has been kept in a photograph album for over 100 years.  It is so fragile that it broke in half last time I looked at it and that is after relatively sheltered storage.
2. The paper he wrote on does not look like a signal form or gridded notebook paper.  This doesn't preclude authenticity but is a little unusual.
3. The latitude, longitude supplied is uncannily close to the modern coordinates for the 47th London Division Memorial, High Wood.  The trouble is that these would have been written as 57c.S.4.c.7.1.  I seriously doubt RSM Ridout or anyone in the vicinity would know how to produce latitude, longitude references with that degree of precision.  None of their maps have anything printed that could produce arcseconds and you would want a surveyor to get reasonable precision beyond degrees, to minutes.
4. The modern coordinates of the memorial are 50.03687, 2.78585.  This is 50°2'12.7", 2°47'9.1" which is so close to your message.  However, it is not east of High Wood but in the bottom-centre.  Plus, your message shows these in the modern WGS84 standard, whereas had RSM Ridout been fluent in lat, lon he would have written them using the Greenwich Observatory meridian, not the WGS84 one.  This is displacement of over 100 metres from the London meridian, let alone the original Airy meridian some of us suspect was used. 
5. On the afternoon of the 15th September 1916 High Wood had been captured and the book previously cited in this thread says: " ... efforts finally demoralised the German garrison, who began to surrender in batches, and before one o'clock High Wood was reported clear of the enemy".  So I'm uncertain why RSM Ridout was reporting heavy resistance east of the wood an hour later, as the flanking unit were already attacking the Flers Line.
6. You say that he is requesting artillery fire.  Where is the artillery target in the message you have imaged?
7. Typically, a Great War officer or senior NCO wrote his rank with a full stop between each letter.  RSM Ridout would probably have written R.S.M. whereas your message has R.  S.  M.  Not a show stopper but unusual.

This would be a truly amazing find, so once again welcome to this forum and please provide a decent image and address the main concerns I've raised.

Cheers, Bill

[HugoT]

Thanks for your attention to this post,

I'm going to use the information you've given me to find out more. Thank you very much

[dickaren]

Why was an RSM carrying lipstick!!