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PTE J Burton MGC uniform identification etc


wulsten

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Picked two postcards up this morning and MGC badge from local market, can anything be added to inform about uniform etc, both postcards marked Pve J Burton, in both pictures wearing spurs

Anything appreciated 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by wulsten
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27 minutes ago, wulsten said:

Picked two postcards up this morning and MGC badge from local market, can anything be added to inform about uniform etc, both postcards marked Pve J Burton, in both pictures wearing spurs

Anything appreciated 

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He is either Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry) or a member of a transport section of the Machine Gun Corps (Infantry). It's hard to make out the shoulder titles.       Pete.

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On 23/11/2023 at 13:34, CorporalPunishment said:

He is either Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry) or a member of a transport section of the Machine Gun Corps (Infantry). It's hard to make out the shoulder titles.       Pete.

Thank you

Edited by wulsten
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23 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

He is either Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry) or a member of a transport section of the Machine Gun Corps (Infantry). It's hard to make out the shoulder titles.       Pete.

Pete,

sadly the original is not very clear

IMG_20231123_135702.jpg

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3 minutes ago, wulsten said:

Pete,

sadly the original is not very clear

IMG_20231123_135702.jpg

In that photo he is wearing the standard MGC pattern shoulder title but in the other photo it looks like there is a letter I below the MGC. That would denote Machine Gun Corps (Infantry).        Pete.

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1 hour ago, wulsten said:

Pete,

sadly the original is not very clear

IMG_20231123_135702.jpg

I concur with Pete and I wonder also whether he might’ve moved between both branches because his mount is finely turned out, with good tack, including whitened head rope, GS saddle fitted with the army issue case for spare shoes.  It all seems a cut above what I might expect to see from a Transport Section where it would only be common to see a soldier mounted when exercising one of the field officers chargers**, as most of the established animals were light and heavy draught for the purposes of drawing wagons, carts and limbers.  In the other photo he he wears the 1914 pattern leather waistbelt of a dismounted soldier, though, plus he has earned a single good conduct badge (inverted cuff stripe) for 2-years blemish free full-time service.  As Pete said it’s impossible to be 100% sure of the two tier shoulder title, but I would have expected to see a 1903 waistbelt had he been with the cavalry branch in that photo.

**plus specialist regimental staff such as the Adjutant, Quartermaster and Transport Officer, regardless of rank.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 23/11/2023 at 14:58, FROGSMILE said:

I concur with Pete and I wonder also whether he might’ve moved between both branches because his mount is finely turned out, with good tack, including whitened head rope, GS saddle fitted with the army issue case for spare shoes.  It all seems a cut above what I might expect to see from a Transport Section where it would only be common to see a soldier mounted when exercising one of the field officers chargers**, as most of the established animals were light and heavy draught for the purposes of drawing wagons, carts and limbers.  In the other photo he he wears the 1914 pattern leather waistbelt of a dismounted soldier, though, plus he has earned a single good conduct badge (inverted cuff stripe) for 2-years blemish free full-time service.  As Pete said it’s impossible to be 100% sure of the two tier shoulder title, but I would have expected to see a 1903 waistbelt had he been with the cavalry branch in that photo.

**plus specialist regimental staff such as the Adjutant, Quartermaster and Transport Officer, regardless of rank.

Full photo if helpful though less defined

 

Edited by wulsten
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33 minutes ago, wulsten said:

Full photo if helpful though less defined

IMG20231123154849.jpg

Yes it helps as we can now see he wears spurs and carries a whip.  These are quite strong suggestions, when considered alongside his photo whilst mounted, that he might well have been with the MGC Cavalry branch.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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59 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it helps as we can now see he wears spurs and carries a whip.  These are quite strong suggestions, when considered alongside his photo whilst mounted, that he might well have been with the MGC Cavalry branch.

Sorry for lack of knowledge wnst was the the mgc cavalry branch and could it tie down j Burton??

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3 hours ago, wulsten said:

Sorry for lack of knowledge wnst was the the mgc cavalry branch and could it tie down j Burton??

The MGC was divided into two parts**: MGC infantry and MGC cavalry.  The idea being to separately support infantry divisions and cavalry divisions (initially via their subordinate brigades).  See: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/machine-gun-corps-cavalry-squadrons/

As regards identifying J Burton there is a MGC database being painstakingly developed here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/305572-graham-sackers-machine-gun-corps-database-now-online-and-available-for-all-to-access-through-discovery/#comment-3221837

This is a wonderful thing because not only were the vast majority of service records destroyed in WW2 bombing, but even before that the MGC historical documents and WW1 paraphernalia were destroyed in a tragic fire in the MGC HQ and depot at Shorncliffe, Kent in 1921, one year before the corps was disbanded.

** there was soon a third part, the MGC Heavy Section (later Heavy Branch) that within 18-months evolved to become the discrete Tank Corps. 

 

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thank you I did not realise there was an mgc cavalry, which he may have been part of considering the photographs, however now preserved and kept together, identity??? as so many, pte J Burton 

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2 hours ago, wulsten said:

Thank you I did not realise there was an mgc cavalry, which he may have been part of considering the photographs, however now preserved and kept together, identity??? as so many, pte J Burton 

To identify the right man you will need the help of one of the superb genealogical detectives in the forum.  I’m sure that one will pop up soon as I’ve noticed that there are contributors from both hemispheres, so it tends to depend on the position of the clock.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The MGC was divided into two parts**: MGC infantry and MGC cavalry.  The idea being to separately support infantry divisions and cavalry divisions (initially via their subordinate brigades).  See: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/machine-gun-corps-cavalry-squadrons/

As regards identifying J Burton there is a MGC database being painstakingly developed here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/305572-graham-sackers-machine-gun-corps-database-now-online-and-available-for-all-to-access-through-discovery/#comment-3221837

This is a wonderful thing because not only were the vast majority of service records destroyed in WW2 bombing, but even before that the MGC historical documents and WW1 paraphernalia were destroyed in a tragic fire in the MGC HQ and depot at Shorncliffe, Kent in 1921, one year before the corps was disbanded.

** there was soon a third part, the MGC Heavy Section (later Heavy Branch) that within 18-months evolved to become the discrete Tank Corps. 

 

IMG_0862.jpeg

IMG_0859.jpeg

IMG_0861.jpeg

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Not forgetting, of course, the fourth part, the Machine Gun Corps (Motors), formed from the former Motor Machine Gun Service which is very often incorrectly referred to as the "Motor Machine Gun Corps" which it never was.     Pete.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Not forgetting, of course, the fourth part, the Machine Gun Corps (Motors), formed from the former Motor Machine Gun Service which is very often incorrectly referred to as the "Motor Machine Gun Corps" which it never was.     Pete.

 

 

 

Yes that’s right Pete, it surprised me that the Royal Artillery lost their early control of mobile machine gun use, and deployment, that they had previously delivered via the MMGS.

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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