19323 Pte. Birtwell, Robert - 11th Battalion, King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster)

[JimmyBirtwell]

Hello everyone,

I have been doing quite a bit of research into my great grandpa Robert's wartime service in The Great War. I have attempted to interpret the records that I have access to as best as possible, but any assistance would be greatly appreciated! 

My great grandpa Private Robert "one-armed Bob" Birtwell, was born on 25th January 1888 in Accrington, Lancashire, and joined the 11^th Battalion of the King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) on 10^th July 1915. He first went to Camp Blackdown with his Battalion in 1916, as a soldier in B Company before shipping out to France. He popped over to France on 3rd June 1916. I am not sure whether the 11th Battalion KORR (Lancs) took part in that nasty bit of business called the Battle of the Somme, but any information about their whereabouts would be appreciated! I have ordered a copy of the 11th Battalion War Diary and it is in the mail. I'm hoping to piece together a map of his service. It appears that he received a wound on 24^th October 1916 according to the Casualty List. This entitled him to wear the "wound stripe" on his uniform when he returned to duty. He continued to serve through the war, and the 11th Battalion is noted to have been involved in the 3rd Battle of Ypres (31st July to 10th November 1917), and the Battle of Cambrai (20th November to 3rd December 1917). The 11th Battalion seems to have been disbanded on 17th February 1918, and he then underwent an inter-regimental transfer to the 1st Battalion. It is presumably with the 1st Battalion where he received tremendous wounds around May 1918. I have attached a newspaper clipping I found from the Accrington Observer about his injuries. To sum it up, it states he received about 10 shrapnel wounds. He had his right arm amputated, and had shrapnel wounds on his thighs and legs. He likely picked up these tokens of history during the German Spring Offensive in 1918. Very nasty business. He was discharged on 5^th March 1919 after being rendered unfit for duty after his injuries. He was awarded the British War Medal, Allied Victory Medal, the Silver War Badge, and the Wound Stripe. He was married to Martha Birtwell before the war, and they remained married until she passed away in 1953. After that he married Sarah Alice Birtwell, his deceased brother Isaac's wife and he lived until April of 1965, survived by his wife Sarah Alice. He was the father of my grandpa Samuel Birtwell who served with the Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers from 1945 to 1948, and Robert Birtwell jr, and step-father of Annie Birtwell. 

 

From Forces War Records, I have unearthed the following information:

 

Full Name

Birtwell, Robert

Rank Name

Private

Service Number

19323

Na Url

/details/r/D1342586

Na Years

1914-1920

Regiment

Royal Lancaster Regiment

Archive Reference

WO 372/2/156451

Conflict Period

World War I

Served for

United Kingdom

Award

Victory Medal

Award

British War Medals WW1

 

Full Name

Birtwell, R

Information

Particulars furnished: Preston, 07/05/1919.

Rank Name

Private

Service Number

19323

Service From Date

10 Jul 1915

Service To Date

5 Mar 1919

Reason for Discharge

Paragraph 392 King's Regulations (xvi) No longer physically fit for war service.

Silver War Badge Number

B190560

War Office Ref. Number

H/2341/2

Overseas

Yes

Service

British Army

Primary Unit

King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)

Archive Reference

WO329/3080

Conflict Period

World War I

Served for

United Kingdom

Award

Victory Medal

Award

British War Medals WW1

Award

Silver War Badge

Regiment

King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)

 

Full Name

Birtwell, R

Resided Place

Accrington

Incident Date

24 Oct 1916

Further Information

This man was entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being met by their naming in this list.

Information

Listed as "Wounded" on the Casualty List issued by the War Office.

Rank Name

Private

Service Number

19323

Service

British Army

Primary Unit

King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)

Archive Reference

DT25101916

Conflict Period

World War I

Served for

United Kingdom

 

However, I am not able to find any documentation in the Casualty List regarding his second injury where he lost his arm.

I have also included a portrait of him in his uniform, and a copy of the article from Accrington Observer for his wounding.

Any more assistance in posible record interpretation, other additional valuable information, possible relations, stories, and information specific to the 11th Battalion KORR (Lancs) from his time of enlistment to their disbandment, and the 1st Battalion from February 1918 onwards to 1919 would be wonderful!

 

Thank you,

We will remember them.

 

2nd Lieutenant Jimmy H. Birtwell

Canadian Armed Forces

Edited 19 November , 2023 by JimmyBirtwell

[JOVE23]

Welcome, Jimmy!

I don't have much to add, but the 24 October date is most likely not the date he was wounded, but the date the casualty report with his name in it finally made it to press. There was anywhere from a month to a six week backlog between wounding and publishing. The real experts will be along shortly to give more information soon.

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, JOVE23 said:

Welcome, Jimmy!

I don't have much to add, but the 24 October date is most likely not the date he was wounded, but the date the casualty report with his name in it finally made it to press. There was anywhere from a month to a six week backlog between wounding and publishing. The real experts will be along shortly to give more information soon.

Agreed, typically one month earlier.

One trick is to look for records of other on the same list, same regiment (sadly battalion is not given) and see if they have surviving records to suggest actual date. But in this case there's only one other man Flynn 20820 and gives no clues for 1917.

There's a snippet for Birtwell on FindmyPast

But I suspect it relates to 1918? Again, check out the other men listed?

Charlie

[PRC]

Hi @JimmyBirtwell and welcome to the forum

Other than the one pager on FindMyPast are there any surviving service \ pension records for him as I'm not spotting them indexed on Ancestry.

Reason for asking as you are quite detailed about his early career - including date of enlistment, (also available on his Silver War Badge record), where he initially reported to and Company assigned too. The slight problem I have is that according to our parent site the 11th Battalion wasn't formed until August 1915 and it was a Bantam Battalion - i.e for those under regulation height. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-royal-lancaster-regiment/

As he appears to have other brothers already serving it may just have been him that was on the short side!

The 11th Battalion were part of the 40th Division and that Division moved to France between 2 and 6 June 1916 and by 9 June had concentrated near Lillers. It then served between June and late October 1916 on the front near Loos. Like most British Army Divisions it was rotated into the Somme campaign, but in this case only for the final battles - those on the Ancre. These continued after the campaign officially ended, but were described as "Actions", intended to straighten out the line or gain local tactical advantage. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/40th-division/

War Diaries for units fighting in France & Flanders can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one then it can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.

The relevant catalogue page for the 11th Battalion War Diary can be found here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354289

The award of only the Victory Medal and British War Medal confirms he did not enter a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

Have you checked his Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll on Ancestry to confirm all the Battalions he served with in a Theatre of War? By the time of the Somme onwards the further back a man was medically evacuated the less likely he would be returned to his original battalion on recovery - even if it was just to the hospitals in the British base area between Calais and Le Havre. So a wounding recorded on an October 1916 casualty list, so most likely late August  \ September 1916 could have meant he didn't return to the 11th Battalion or that he missed their involvement in the Battle of the Ancre. However a wound stripe could include him being wounded and remaining at his post or bandaged up at a dressing station \ field ambulance and sent back to his unit.

A search of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for August and September 1916 shows not one death for the 11th Battalion, so doesn't look like they were involved in any major action. Unfortunately that also rules out that avenue as a possible indicator of when Robert might have been wounded.

It can't be guaranteed but sometimes the final entries for a disbanding battalion can include details of which units the released soldiers were sent to. On one occasion I even came across a roll-call that gave that information for each individual.

If he was posted to the 1st Battalion then that was part of the 4th Division.  Given that he was reported in hospital in the UK by early May 1918 then Robert is most likely to have incurred his wounds during the opening phases of the German Spring Offensive. The Long, Long Trail shows the following for the 4th Division:-
The First Battles of the Somme 1918 in phase:
– First Battle of Arras 1918 (28 March: defensive fight against German Operation “Mars”)
The Battles of the Lys in phases:
– Battle of Hazebrouck (12-15 April, in which the battalion fought in the Defence of Hinges Ridge)
– Battle of Bethune (18 April)
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/4th-division/

The 1st Battalion War Diary can be found in the UK National Archive here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352172

Hope that helps,
Peter

[JimmyBirtwell]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @JimmyBirtwell and welcome to the forum

Other than the one pager on FindMyPast are there any surviving service \ pension records for him as I'm not spotting them indexed on Ancestry.

Reason for asking as you are quite detailed about his early career - including date of enlistment, (also available on his Silver War Badge record), where he initially reported to and Company assigned too. The slight problem I have is that according to our parent site the 11th Battalion wasn't formed until August 1915 and it was a Bantam Battalion - i.e for those under regulation height. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-royal-lancaster-regiment/

As he appears to have other brothers already serving it may just have been him that was on the short side!

The 11th Battalion were part of the 40th Division and that Division moved to France between 2 and 6 June 1916 and by 9 June had concentrated near Lillers. It then served between June and late October 1916 on the front near Loos. Like most British Army Divisions it was rotated into the Somme campaign, but in this case only for the final battles - those on the Ancre. These continued after the campaign officially ended, but were described as "Actions", intended to straighten out the line or gain local tactical advantage. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/40th-division/

War Diaries for units fighting in France & Flanders can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one then it can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.

The relevant catalogue page for the 11th Battalion War Diary can be found here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354289

The award of only the Victory Medal and British War Medal confirms he did not enter a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

Have you checked his Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll on Ancestry to confirm all the Battalions he served with in a Theatre of War? By the time of the Somme onwards the further back a man was medically evacuated the less likely he would be returned to his original battalion on recovery - even if it was just to the hospitals in the British base area between Calais and Le Havre. So a wounding recorded on an October 1916 casualty list, so most likely late August  \ September 1916 could have meant he didn't return to the 11th Battalion or that he missed their involvement in the Battle of the Ancre. However a wound stripe could include him being wounded and remaining at his post or bandaged up at a dressing station \ field ambulance and sent back to his unit.

A search of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for August and September 1916 shows not one death for the 11th Battalion, so doesn't look like they were involved in any major action. Unfortunately that also rules out that avenue as a possible indicator of when Robert might have been wounded.

It can't be guaranteed but sometimes the final entries for a disbanding battalion can include details of which units the released soldiers were sent to. On one occasion I even came across a roll-call that gave that information for each individual.

If he was posted to the 1st Battalion then that was part of the 4th Division.  Given that he was reported in hospital in the UK by early May 1918 then Robert is most likely to have incurred his wounds during the opening phases of the German Spring Offensive. The Long, Long Trail shows the following for the 4th Division:-
The First Battles of the Somme 1918 in phase:
– First Battle of Arras 1918 (28 March: defensive fight against German Operation “Mars”)
The Battles of the Lys in phases:
– Battle of Hazebrouck (12-15 April, in which the battalion fought in the Defence of Hinges Ridge)
– Battle of Bethune (18 April)
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/4th-division/

The 1st Battalion War Diary can be found in the UK National Archive here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352172

Hope that helps,
Peter

Hi PRC!

Thank you for the welcome! I found out the company he was attached to and his presence at Camp Blackdown from the KORR (Lancs) museum website. Those were the only leads I really have in placing him in the grand scheme of things. He was very much a short man, and likely why he got into the Bantam's. His son Sam was only 5 foot 3 inches. Must have passed on the gene.

Yes, I have checked his medal roll on Ancestry, and he was first a member of the 11th Battalion, and then with the 1st Battalion later on. As you mentioned it's possible that after his first wounding he could've simply been given a field dressing in triage and returned to the front with his original 11th Battalion. He did indeed get awarded the Wound Stripe for that 1916 injury. Likely that he stayed at the front, I believe it was shrapnel.

I agree that it's most likely he was with the 1st Battalion in the German Spring Offensive of 1918, it was certainly very heavy fighting. So it seems that when he was in the 11th Battalion, he was with the 40th Division, and then with the 1st Battalion in the 4th Division. Very interesting to note! I will have a look through the War Diary of the 1st Battalion shortly. 

The story from my grandmother went along the lines that he got cut off from his section in an artillery bombardment and was attempting to help them get back to the nearest defensive position. She says that's when an artillery shell landed nearby and caused his serious injuries, resulting in his right arm amputation and being riddled with shrapnel in the legs. Of course, with that only being a word of mouth story, it's impossible to know the factual reality of such goings on. 

[JimmyBirtwell]

11 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Agreed, typically one month earlier.

One trick is to look for records of other on the same list, same regiment (sadly battalion is not given) and see if they have surviving records to suggest actual date. But in this case there's only one other man Flynn 20820 and gives no clues for 1917.

There's a snippet for Birtwell on FindmyPast

But I suspect it relates to 1918? Again, check out the other men listed?

Charlie

Thanks Charlie!

I appreciate that snippet. Hadn't seen that one on Ancestry yet. I went on FindMyPast and looked at it after you pointed it out. I would say that likely correlates to the 1918 injury I presume.

It makes sense that casualty reports were a month later than the date it happened. Thanks for this!

18 hours ago, JOVE23 said:

Welcome, Jimmy!

I don't have much to add, but the 24 October date is most likely not the date he was wounded, but the date the casualty report with his name in it finally made it to press. There was anywhere from a month to a six week backlog between wounding and publishing. The real experts will be along shortly to give more information soon.

Thank you! I didn't know about the delay, that's good to know!

[PRC]

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

One trick is to look for records of other on the same list, same regiment (sadly battalion is not given) and see if they have surviving records to suggest actual date. But in this case there's only one other man Flynn 20820

@JimmyBirtwell

List actually appeared in The Times dated Monday, October 23rd, 1916 rather than the 24th. And while it can't be guaranteed to have happened at the same time, the same list, (the first of two British Army lists that appear in that days' Times) included under Killed for the Kings Own (Royal Lancashire Regiment), 21135 Private J. Glendinning.

On CWGC that is Private James Glendinning, who died on the 16th September 1916 serving with the 11th Battalion, aged 18. He was the son of George and Isabella Glendinning, of Scotland Gate, Sark Tower, Canonbie, Dumfriesshire. James is buried at Maroc British Cemetery, Grenay. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/523084/james-glendinning/

CWGC locates the cemetery at the village of Grenay, which is about 15 kilometres south-east of Bethune. From Lens take the N43 towards Bethune. After Loos-en-Gohelle turn left (after the petrol station) and continue straight on. The Cemetery is a few kilometres on the right side of the road, in the village. The cemetery was begun by French troops in August 1915, but it was first used as a Commonwealth cemetery by the 47th (London) Division in January 1916. During the greater part of the war it was a front-line cemetery used by fighting units and field ambulances, and protected from German observation by a slight rise in the ground. https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/58200/maroc-british-cemetery-grenay/

James has surviving service records. There is a note of his death in the edition of the Dumfries and Galloway Standard dated Wednesday, 04 October 1916, but no details given of the circumstances of his death.

In the same Brigade as the the 11th Battalion at that time were the 14th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry, the 14th Battalion, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, and the 13th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment. The war diaries for the Battalions of the East Surrey Regiment have been typed up and put on line. For a bit of background and insight here are those transcriptions for the days leading up to the 16th September 1916.

MAROC

12th  September 1916

The Battalion relieved the 14th Bn. Highland Light Infantry holding the right subsection MAROC Sector. Headquarters were established at M.3.c.20.05. On our right was the 63rd R. Naval Division – on our left 11th Bn. Kings Own R.L.R. Our medium trench mortars were active cutting wire in front of PUITS 16 & bombarding the enemy’s lines South of the DOUBLE CRASSIER. The enemy retaliated with rifle grenades. In the afternoon the enemy shelled our support line between EDGWARE ROAD & NEUF ALLEY with 5.9’s.

13th September 1916.

Our medium trench mortars were active wire cutting in front of PUITS 16. The enemy retaliated with universal shells into EDGWARE KEEP, and about 30 shells (shrapnel) into our support line near M.9.d.4.9. They also fired several rifle grenades at BANK SAP but these fell short.

14th September 1916.

Wire cutting in front of PUITS 16 was continued. The enemy retaliated with about 12 universal shells and 6 high explosive (5.9”) into EDGWARE KEEP.  During the night the Lewis Guns traversed the damaged parts of the enemy’s wire.

15th September 1916.

The enemy shelled our front and support trenches between EDGWARE RD and the DOUBLE CRASSIER with 5.9” shrapnel & trench mortars.
A raid on the enemy’s trenches was contemplated but abandoned.
Casualties 1 O.R. wounded (died of wounds at C.C.S). http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES01319160902.pdf

16th September 1916.

During the day the enemy dropped shells along our support line causing no damaged.

At 11.30 p.m. we attempted a raid on the enemy’s trenches but were unable to penetrate the enemy’s wire.
2nd Lieut. R.C. JOHNSON & 2nd Lieut. G.S.DREW reported for duty.
Casualties 2nd Lieut. THOMSON (T.R.) & 3 O.R. wounded; 1 O.R missing and 2 O.R. missing, believed wounded. http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES01319160903.pdf

----------------------------------  

By the time of Roberts' second wounding Other Rank casualties were no longer reported in The Times but in a Weekly Casualty List published by the War Office. I've tried searching these using the British Newspaper Archive but have failed to find a match. However the optical character recognition software used by that source leaves a lot to be desired  - and sources like the Newspapers and Periodicals facility on FindMyPast and presumably Ancestry just repeat it rather than offering a separate transcription.

Copies of the lists can also be found on the National Library of Scotland website. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

The original lists themselves also contain a lot of errors, and some individuals were just missed, so it may not be possible to track down when he was wounded.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

 

 

7 hours ago, PRC said:

it can't be guaranteed to have happened at the same time,

Peter, very good digging as usual. 

I've always been hesitant about assuming killed list and wounded list were published with same delay. I have the impression that killed were published a bit earlier than wounded. I suspect I need to rethink but I would be interested if others have a view. My thinking may be biased to earlier in the war. Frankly I don't know how I arrived at my 'impression' !!

Anyway, in absence particularly of others in the same wounded list then your approach is a must. I've seen you use this for other men and the advantage is that there are at least cwgc/sdgw/effects/pension to be found for such men even if one is unlikely to find a service record. 

Charlie

PS. I had tried FMP newspapers for the second wounding, incl trying to find reports of others wounded perhaps same period but with Battalion number being censored it is very difficult and I got nowhere. Not to say it's not there!

[charlie962]

21 hours ago, PRC said:

search of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for August and September 1916 shows not one death for the 11th Battalion,

There are at least 4 including Glendinning for Sept 1916.

Yearsley 19386 14/9/16 (DoW Times 6/10/16)

Glendinning  21135 16/9/16 (K Times 23/10/16)

Harrison  22471 26/9/16 (DoW Times 24/10/16)

Taylor  19642   27/9/16 (DoW Times 24/10/16) 

 

Taylor has an Ambulance Train admission 26/9/16 GSW.

Yearsley was admitted to FA 14/9/16 GSW. He has a service record.

Taylor and Harrison are buried at Etaples. 

 

Worth looking at the 11th Bn War diary around 24/9/16, I think. (Edit.. but see below, I'm way off!)

 

Edited 21 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

11th Bn war diary is here at National Archived and free to download if you register.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354289

[charlie962]

Birtwell is named as wounded (retuned to duty) 10/9/16. The war diary has named casualty lists in the appendix. 

I note Flynn was same date and 'returned to duty' (and appears in Times same date as Birtwell)

Here's Ancestry page

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43849_2611_3-00127?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=1a390ebcb5635173b1a2e026698f21c4&pId=673250

Edited 21 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Courtesy Ancestry

[PRC]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

I've always been hesitant about assuming killed list and wounded list were published with same delay.

Agreed - it's likely to be an amalgam of reports that have been received so could cover a variety of dates and include men missed from earlier reports. You have only to look at some of the errors on the surviving Medical Admissions Registers to think the clerks in the UK hadn't much of a chance of linking the information received back to a service record. When you are talking about Field Ambulances, Casualty Clearing Stations and Ambulance Trains where the seriously wounded spent a few hours before being moved on, then the records office clerks would have known there is no point in going back to seeking clarification as the MAR information is likely to be all they had. It seems to be at the Base Hospitals and in the UK that thse ID issues get sorted out - probably when they stop being drugged out of their mind because of the pain.

In my head I have it as a possible explanation for why so many B.103's don't record all the stages of a mans' medical evacuation - a badly wounded man isn't likely to go straight from the front line to a General Hospital at Etaples or Rouen etc. without touching the sides, so to speak

At best it provides a date around which to base the search, and if there is more than one, a possible indicator of whether the list contains individuals from more than one Battalion.

55 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There are at least 4 including Glendinning for Sept 1916.

Odd - I was using Geoff's Search Engine and when I went to re-run the query just now all the previous search criteria were there as having been previously used As I didn't know whether then report might have stretched back to late August 1916 I ran a query covering 1st August to 30th September 1916. However just ran it again and got 20 matches so apologies for my erroneous statement.

Image courtesy Geoff's Search Engine. http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/searchWW1.php

55 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Yearsley was admitted to FA 14/9/16 GSW. He has a service record.

Charlie - which Field Ambulance? I see you've just posted that Birtwell was wounded and returned to duty, but just wondering if it's posible to infer anything more from the Field Ambulance War Diary entriesthat might apply to Birtwell. He won't be named - that would be in the long ago destroyed Medical Admission Register - and the Diary could well have the 24 hours to noon stats keeping, but going on the appendix information it would be interesting to know if it shows two wounded admissions in the period 9th - 11th September.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 21 November , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

which Field Ambulance?

135 FA

[charlie962]

Interesting to see that those 'Wounded returned to duty' have a delayed reporting in the Times Wounded Lists.

Birtwell, Flynn Times 23/10/16.

Graver,Thompson, Scargill all Times 24/10/16.

Different reporting lines?

[charlie962]

1918.

The 11th Bn was broken up in Feb 1918 as the whole Army underwent réorganisation.

The War Diary shows that on 7/2/18 a number of officers plus 279 Other Ranks were this day posted to the 1st Battalion.

 I think we can assume Birtwell was in this group.

Edited 21 November , 2023 by charlie962

[PRC]

@JimmyBirtwell

As you have access to Ancestry all the war diaries for units serving in France & Flanders are also available there. The other two Field Ambulances attached to 40th Division were 136th and 137th. These were a Divisional assets and while a Division was routinely holding a sector of the frontline it was not uncommon for one ambulance to handle wounded, one the sick and one to be resting.

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Graver,Thompson, Scargill all Times 24/10/16.

Different reporting lines?

And Glendinning died on the 16th is in The Times on the 23rd.

Interestingly the War Diary notes Glendinning as died of wounds - the Official Casualty List in The Times has him as Killed, the official notification received by his parents and reported in the press had him as Killed in Action, as does Soldiers Died in the Great War and I suspect his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects.

First observation is that while those individuals, including Birtwell, are tied to a variety of dates they come within a bound of the 10-18th September which still provides grounds for a more targetted search of the war diary.

Second observation is that I've never worked in a job that involved indepth record keeping on people, whether public or private sector, that didn't divide the work up by blocks of surnames. When I handled life insurance quotes at head office immediately after leaving school, (pre desk top computers), I was responsible for the A surnames. A couple of years later my first box in a Government Department was surnames I-L. Moving into a supervisory role part of the job was to keep an eye on the live load and rebalance the surname splits to ensure the work was evenly spread. Speculation on my part, but I suspect that would be the way the records office would be set up, rather than having clerks dedicated to the 11th Battalion. So part of the reason for delay might be if a large casualty list was received which took up the available manpower - a smaller list might have to wait to be actionned.

Cheers,
Peter