Unknown officers [Dorsets?]

[cpnorfolk]

Can anyone identify the regiment and officers in the attached photo? Some sort of field sports event - all three have rosettes on their left breast pockets. If it is any help it is from a photo album of Major Richard Evelegh Partridge, Dorsetshire Regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, cpnorfolk said:

Can anyone identify the regiment and officers in the attached photo? Some sort of field sports event - all three have rosettes on their left breast pockets. If it is any help it is from a photo album of Major Richard Evelegh Partridge, Dorsetshire Regiment.

The officers at front are, left-to-right, a Colonel on the Staff and a General officer (exact rank unclear, but note both officers staff armlets) and then a regimental officer.  Unfortunately the cap badge of the latter is too distorted to ID, but his insignia appears too small to be Dorsetshire Regiment.  He is a captain (2 cuff rings) and so probably the general’s ADC (aide de camp).

Edited 10 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

There's a few stirrups on view to the right and what I perceive as riding crops.

That plus the deposit!! in front of the Colonel's feet suggests a horse event.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, TEW said:

There's a few stirrups on view to the right and what I perceive as riding crops.

That plus the deposit!! in front of the Colonel's feet suggests a horse event.

TEW

Yes I agree.  It could well be a divisional equestrian event.  These were encouraged when out of the line as a way to promote animal husbandry and efficiency.

[TEW]

Yes, I've occasionally seen WO95 diaries that go into quite some detail on the day's Gymkhana or Point to Point meet. Sometimes the day's programme has been included.

TEW

[CorporalPunishment]

It's unusual to see a colonel without any medal ribbons at all. I am wondering if he was a Canadian officer as there appears to be a couple of Canadian soldiers among the crowd.        Pete.

Edited 10 November , 2023 by CorporalPunishment

[TEW]

The centre officer seems to have gorgets and capband braiding very similar to Haig.

I know he can't be a Field Marshall so I suspect there are small variations but he must be a General or Lt. General surely.

I think he has an MC so how may of those ranks had an MC?

TEW

[CorporalPunishment]

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

The centre officer seems to have gorgets and capband braiding very similar to Haig.

I know he can't be a Field Marshall so I suspect there are small variations but he must be a General or Lt. General surely.

I think he has an MC so how may of those ranks had an MC?

TEW

I think he's a Brigadier-General going by his epaulettes. No sign of any crowns or pips on them so probably just the crossed sword and baton rank badges.     Pete.

[PRC]

The presence of civilians in the crowd would tend to suggest this might be in the UK, although of course no reason why it couldn't be in France, Flanders, or even Egypt - Major Partridge was a GSO2 to 31st Division and they had a few months in that last country before being sent on to France.  Was the absense of side arms something seen in the rear areas of France or would it be more likely in the UK.

As Lieutenant Partridge he had gone out to France on the 14th August 1914 - hopefully @cpnorfolk can confirm whether he saw service with the 31st Dvision before they left for Egypt on the 2nd December 1915.

Divisional Commanders according to Wikipedia were:-
    Maj-Gen Edward Fanshawe from 26 July 1915
    Brig-Gen Edward Hogarth Molesworth (acting) from 16 August 1915
    Maj-Gen Robert Wanless O'Gowan from 24 August 1915
    Maj-Gen R.J. Bradford from 21 March 1918
    Maj-Gen J. Campbell from 6 May 1918
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31st_Division_(United_Kingdom)

Fanshawe and O'Gowan are definately not the General pictured here see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fanshawe_(British_Army_officer)
and https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw237028/Robert-Wanless-OGowan

So my nominations would be one of the Brigadier-Generals of the 31st Division prior to them leaving for Egypt. And according to the LLT the Division assembled at Fovant, Hampshire in September 1915, and I believe the Canadians were training nearby, although that could just be a co-incidence.

The following officers commanded 92nd Brigade:

Brigadier-General Sir Henry Dixon, appointed (to 113rd Brigade) 31 December 1914
Brigadier-General A. Parker, appointed 2 July 1915 (The only MiC for a Brigadier General A. Parker I can see is a SWB card for an Arthur Parker of the Tank Corps).
Brigadier-General O. de L. Williams, appointed 10 June 1916
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/92nd_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)

The 93rd and 94th Brigade Wikipedia entires don't currently have that level of detail.

Cheers,
Peter

(Five minutes later.) Edit to add - I wouldn't make too much of it but other than the General all the officers ranks that can be seen appear to be on the cuffs, not the shoulders.

Edited 11 November , 2023 by PRC

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, TEW said:

The centre officer seems to have gorgets and capband braiding very similar to Haig.

I know he can't be a Field Marshall so I suspect there are small variations but he must be a General or Lt. General surely.

I think he has an MC so how may of those ranks had an MC?

TEW

I think Pete’s right that he’s probably a Brigadier General given the little obvious insignia on his shoulder straps where all general officers wore their rank.  The cap badge, double row of peak braid and gorget tabs were standard, with just Field Marshal being different.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, PRC said:

The presence of civilians in the crowd would tend to suggest this might be in the UK, although of course no reason why it couldn't be in France, Flanders, or even Egypt - Major Partridge was a GSO2 to 31st Division and they had a few months in that last country before being sent on to France.  Was the absense of side arms something seen in the rear areas of France or would it be more likely in the UK.

As Lieutenant Partridge he had gone out to France on the 14th August 1914 - hopefully @cpnorfolk can confirm whether he saw service with the 31st Dvision before they left for Egypt on the 2nd December 1915.

Divisional Commanders according to Wikipedia were:-
    Maj-Gen Edward Fanshawe from 26 July 1915
    Brig-Gen Edward Hogarth Molesworth (acting) from 16 August 1915
    Maj-Gen Robert Wanless O'Gowan from 24 August 1915
    Maj-Gen R.J. Bradford from 21 March 1918
    Maj-Gen J. Campbell from 6 May 1918
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31st_Division_(United_Kingdom)

Fanshawe and O'Gowan are definately not the General pictured here see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fanshawe_(British_Army_officer)
and https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw237028/Robert-Wanless-OGowan

So my nominations would be one of the Brigadier-Generals of the 31st Division prior to them leaving for Egypt. And according to the LLT the Division assembled at Fovant, Hampshire in September 1915, and I believe the Canadians were training nearby, although that could just be a co-incidence.

The following officers commanded 92nd Brigade:

Brigadier-General Sir Henry Dixon, appointed (to 113rd Brigade) 31 December 1914
Brigadier-General A. Parker, appointed 2 July 1915 (The only MiC for a Brigadier General A. Parker I can see is a SWB card for an Arthur Parker of the Tank Corps).
Brigadier-General O. de L. Williams, appointed 10 June 1916
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/92nd_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)

The 93rd and 94th Brigade Wikipedia entires don't currently have that level of detail.

Cheers,
Peter

I think you’re right that it’s in Britain Peter and might well be in Fovant.  At rear right background in the picture can be seen a group of junior officers and two civilians, a man and a boy.  The fashion of their clothes looks typically British to me.

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

At rear right background in the picture can be seen a group of junior officers and two civilians, a man and a boy.  

And looking past the left "lug" of the officer holding his coat over his forearm there appears to be a man in a bowler hat.

Realise there could be civilian contractors onsite in any country, and some might take the opportunity to bring their children along to watch the sport. But the whole thing has an atmosphere of UK pre-1916. Hopefully that chronology will be confirmed by it's place in the photo album, assuming Major Partridge added them in the order they were taken.

Cheers,
Peter

[TEW]

Frogsmile, thanks for the illustrations on capband braid & gorgets. Just what I was looking for last night. Confirms the similarities in those items for various ranks.

As the centre man is a Staff Officer does that not put him higher up the chain than division?

TEW

 

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, TEW said:

Frogsmile, thanks for the illustrations on capband braid & gorgets. Just what I was looking for last night. Confirms the similarities in those items for various ranks.

As the centre man is a Staff Officer does that not put him higher up the chain than division?

TEW

 

From badge, peak and gorgets the “centre man” is a general officer TEW and, as described earlier, almost certainly a Brigadier-General given his sparsely badged shoulder straps.  He could be a CRA, I suppose, but the armlets appear quite a pale shade, without any contrasting bands, so on the face of it he doesn’t seem to be at Divisional, Corps, or Army level.  If a plain blue, perhaps washed out and faded**, it would suggest an Infantry Brigade, but then he wouldn’t have a Colonel on the Staff in his headquarters.  Unfortunately there isn’t quite enough evidence to be positive of his status, but GOC [of] a brigade seems the more likely.

**or affected by orthochromatic film development.

Edited 11 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

12 hours ago, PRC said:

And looking past the left "lug" of the officer holding his coat over his forearm there appears to be a man in a bowler hat.

Realise there could be civilian contractors onsite in any country, and some might take the opportunity to bring their children along to watch the sport. But the whole thing has an atmosphere of UK pre-1916. Hopefully that chronology will be confirmed by it's place in the photo album, assuming Major Partridge added them in the order they were taken.

Cheers,
Peter

I agree with it being pre-1916 due to the presence of the Canadian seven-button uniforms in the background. I think the colonel might possibly be Andrew McNaughton, later to be General McNaughton, Canadian Army.      Pete.

 

Edited 11 November , 2023 by CorporalPunishment

[PhilB]

Two of the officers in front wear rosettes typical of judges at gymkhana type event.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I agree with it being pre-1916 due to the presence of the Canadian seven-button uniforms in the background. I think the colonel might possibly be Andrew McNaughton, later to be General McNaughton, Canadian Army.      Pete.

 

That’s a good spot Pete, I think you could well be right.  Definitely a Canadian theme there.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

Two of the officers in front wear rosettes typical of judges at gymkhana type event.

Yes it’s certainly got an equestrian vibe going on Phil.  Perhaps judging the various classes of animal, e.g. light draught and heavy draught, as laid down in the Army manual for remounts, etc.

Edited 11 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

3 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I think the colonel might possibly be Andrew McNaughton, later to be General McNaughton, Canadian Army.

Most of the images online that I could find for Andrew McNaughton date to the thirties and forties, but I did find three near contemporary ones to try and do some sort of side by side comparison.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

The 1914 picture was sourced (and gratefully acknowledged from ) https://militaryandfamilyhistory.blog/2018/01/25/update-2-valcartier-1914-2/

The 1919 picture comes from the Library and Archive of Canada with full acknowlegment. https://www.warmuseum.ca/firstworldwar/objects-and-photos/photographs/photographs-of-prominent-people/a-g-l-mcnaugton/

The final picture is also stated to be 1919, however in the full image he is wearing four medal ribbons, whereas the other 1919 picture shows him only with two. Image.gratefully sourced from http://www.canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/a034150.jpg

His Wikipedia article states him to have been made Brigadier General the day before the Western Front Armistice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_McNaughton

I'm afraid jury is out for me as to whether he is the Lieutenant Colonel pictured here.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, PRC said:

Most of the images online that I could find for Andrew McNaughton date to the thirties and forties, but I did find three near contemporary ones to try and do some sort of side by side comparison.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

The 1914 picture was sourced (and gratefully acknowledged from ) https://militaryandfamilyhistory.blog/2018/01/25/update-2-valcartier-1914-2/

The 1919 picture comes from the Library and Archive of Canada with full acknowlegment. https://www.warmuseum.ca/firstworldwar/objects-and-photos/photographs/photographs-of-prominent-people/a-g-l-mcnaugton/

The final picture is also stated to be 1919, however in the full image he is wearing four medal ribbons, whereas the other 1919 picture shows him only with two. Image.gratefully sourced from http://www.canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/a034150.jpg

His Wikipedia article states him to have been made Brigadier General the day before the Western Front Armistice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_McNaughton

I'm afraid jury is out for me as to whether he is the Lieutenant Colonel pictured here.

Cheers,
Peter

Not the same man as in the OP photo in this instance Peter.  Different facial features, apart from moustache, and McNaughton of more slender build and younger.

[Bob Davies]

I can't help thinking that the middle Staff Officer may be Major-General Charles Guinand Blackader CB DSO.

His facial features are very similar as is his overall body shape.

I don't believe he won the MC but certainly had a few ribbons on his chest.

Here is his Wikipedia page and picture courtesy of the same.

Somewhere I have other pictures of him, I have to dig out the book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Blackader#Early_life

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I can't help thinking that the middle Staff Officer may be Major-General Charles Guinand Blackader CB DSO.

His facial features are very similar as is his overall body shape.

I don't believe he won the MC but certainly had a few ribbons on his chest.

Here is his Wikipedia page and picture courtesy of the same.

Somewhere I have other pictures of him, I have to dig out the book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Blackader#Early_life

There is a likeness Bob, perhaps other pictures of him will confirm one way or another.  You’re the second one to call him a staff officer, but he’s actually a general officer.  Staff officers are those below the rank of general but wearing staff gorgets in a variety of colours.  They can be as junior as subalterns and as senior as full colonels.

Edited 11 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

I can't help thinking that the middle Staff Officer may be Major-General Charles Guinand Blackader CB DSO.

His facial features are very similar as is his overall body shape.

I don't believe he won the MC but certainly had a few ribbons on his chest.

Here is his Wikipedia page and picture courtesy of the same.

Somewhere I have other pictures of him, I have to dig out the book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Blackader#Early_life

I can certainly see the likeness but Blackader is wearing the ribbons of the QSAM and KSAM unlike the gent in the opening post.       Pete.

[TEW]

Going back to Major Richard Evelegh Partridge alluded to in the OP.

He had been CO of 1st Dorsets but was at other times attached to 12th Canadian IB and was later a GSO2 31st Division and IX Corps.

No date for the original photo and some of his rank/command dates are a bit vague. He may be another GSO behind the camera.

No sign of steel helmets?

I've tried to look for COs of 31 div and its brigades, ditto 12th Canadian IB but I'm using a phone with slow connection and not enjoying small screens and the delay.

TEW

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, TEW said:

Going back to Major Richard Evelegh Partridge alluded to in the OP.

He had been CO of 1st Dorsets but was at other times attached to 12th Canadian IB and was later a GSO2 31st Division and IX Corps.

No date for the original photo and some of his rank/command dates are a bit vague. He may be another GSO behind the camera.

No sign of steel helmets?

I've tried to look for COs of 31 div and its brigades, ditto 12th Canadian IB but I'm using a phone with slow connection and not enjoying small screens and the delay.

TEW

As others have said further up the thread, it has the look of home (Britain) and as some kind of equestrian event prior to embarkation for France steel helmets would not be a consideration.