Thomas Read

[Jade S]

Hello

I'm looking for a photograph of my great grand uncles battalion - my family has no existing photographs of private Thomas Read.

He was in the 6th Battalion of the Dorsetshire regiment - he was from Wiltshire and lied about his age to get in...his Dad was serving at the time and he would have been found out....he died at 17 years old (every memorial I have found says he was 19 - but we know he was definitely 17 😢)

 

If anyone can help please do so... I'm trying to find a photo of the battalion that we can pick a face from - we're not very hopeful of a portrait image of him.

[Matlock1418]

29 minutes ago, Jade S said:

we're not very hopeful of a portrait image of him.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/406341/thomas-read Son of Thomas and Rose Read, of 22, Scot's Lane, Salisbury.

CWGC and also pension cards at WFA/Fold3 give his parent's home as Salisbury [his mother got 5/- pw, under RW 1919, Art. 21 1c] - so worth looking out for a photo in a local newspaper there [admittedly individual photos were usually a private purchase and not everyone could afford or obtain but if available they were commonly used for a variety of purposes in local newspapers - the social media of the day.  You could try the British Newspaper Archive [also through Find My Past]]

M

Edited 7 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
pension detail

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, Jade S said:

If anyone can help please do so... I'm trying to find a photo of the battalion that we can pick a face from - we're not very hopeful of a portrait image of him.

Hello Jade,

welcome to the Forum.

There are a few pictures on this website here. link;http://www.ww1photos.org/regiment/dorset-regiment/  Worth a look if nothing else.

I hope you find some thing some where.

Regards, Bob.

[PRC]

Hi @Jade S and welcome to the forum

His Dorsetshire Regimental Service number - 14412 - does hint at an autumn 1914 enlistment as the regular army battalions were already up 9828 on the 5th August 1914 and recruits to the new war service battalions like the 6th used the same numbering scheme. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2011/10/dorsetshire-regiment-1881-1914-1st-and.html

The amount of his war gratuity, (shown in his entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, available only on Ancestry and its US sister site Fold 3), can be used to calculate a rough 4 week period during which he enlisted by some of the clever people on the forum!

Similarly a search of nearby numbers may well turn up individuals with surviving service records, and that can be used to bracket when he might have enlisted.

Where that becomes important is that his Medal Index Card shows him as being only entitled to the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. That combination of medals means he did not land in a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

The 6th Battalion of the Dorsetshire Regiment deployed overseas, landing at Boulogne, on the 14th July 1915 https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/dorsetshire-regiment/ - so he was not with them then and must have joined them at a later date as part of a replacement draft. Whether he served with the 6th Battalion at any other point between enlisting and reporting to them in France in 1916 cannot be assumed, and without a service record will be difficult to tell. In the first six months of the war there was a great deal of shuffling around between the newly raised battalions as men fell behind with their training as a result of ill-health  \ poor discipline \ aptitude for military life and a significant number were discharged, with their places being backfilled with later recruits and those who had caught up with their trainining.

NB - FindMyPast have something they are calling a service record for him. However they have catalogued it as T. Read with no dates. Unfortunately I don't subscribe, so can't check it out, but FindMyPast have been very good at finding odd pages in surviving service records that also mention others. Like most paper based offices the records clerks would recycle the likes of casualty lists and daily orders as scrap paper once they had updated the service records of the individuals named.  I suspect that is what has happened here but hopefully a forum pal can check it out in case it mentions him serving in the UK.

The likes of a whole Battalion photograph is probably only going to happen in the UK or after the armistice. Once in a Theatre of War there was little opportunity for one to be taken, and also little incentive as the potential for a disastrous impact on morale would be a risk as the faces present were killed, taken prisoner, were severely wounded or were reported missing. There was also of course nowhere to really display it.

I'm still intrigued by a Regular Army \ New Army man, (Thomas would have been one or the other), who enlisted in 1914 but didn't go out to France until 1916. Would make sense if they knew he was underage and held him back until he was 19, but you say that is not the scenario here.

Just to try and soothe my curiousity I took a look on the genealogy side.

According to Soldiers Died in the Great War, am HMSO publication from the 1920’s, Thomas was born Northam, Hampshire, resident Salisbury, Wiltshire and enlisted Dorchester, Dorset.

We have parents as Thomas and Rose from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database.

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales, taken on the 31st March 1901, there is a 2 year old Thomas Read, born Northam, Hampshire, who was recorded at 5 Old Gate Place, Salisbury. This was the household of his married mother Rose Read, aged 30 and born Fovant, Wiltshire. Rose also has a 7 year old daughter, Mildred Read, also born Fovant.

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales, the family, (transcribed with the surname as “Road” on the sources I have access to), were recorded in a dwelling on Back Street, Fovant, Salisbury. Father Thomas, (aged 54, a self employed Wood & Coal Haulier, born Fovant), was now recorded as the head of the household, with wife Rose assisting in the business. The couple state they have been married 20 years and the union has produced 9 children, of which 5 were then still alive. The five are listed on the census return – Thomas, (12, born Northam), “Girtrude” (9, born Salisbury), and Sidney, (5), “Jeames” (4) and William (3) – all born Fovant. That address falls within the Wilton Civil Registration District for Births, Marriages and Deaths.

A check of the GRO birth records bring up matches for the children on the two censuses with mothers’ maiden name recorded as Stacey.

Mildred May Read, Wilton District, April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1894
Thomas Read, Southampton District, April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1898.
Gertrude Read, Salisbury District, April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1901
Sidney Read, Wilton District, October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1905
James Read, Wilton District, October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1906
William Read, Wilton District, January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1908

Note these are the quarters in which the birth was registered, which isn’t automatically the same as quarter born – you have 42 days after the event to register the birth, and the GRO then reports by quarter registered.

Taking an extreme scenario that Thomas was born and his birth registered on the 30th June 1898, he would still have been 16 when he enlisted and 18 when he died.

That does bring up a potential scenario, particularly if he was closer to 16 and a half when he enlisted. Over the course of the autumn \ winter 1914-15 parents did try to reclaim many of these underage enlistees, while others, bored with army life and realising they were some way from getting to the front, confessed their true age in the hopes of being discharged. The Army instituted a policy of releasing the 16 year olds, but retaining the 17 year olds for home service only, until they were old enough to be sent overseas. At 18 he was still too young, but with the Somme coming up the Army was desperate – indeed he may have been shipped out after the Somme Campaign had commenced, as the 6th Dorsets had been involved in the opening day of the Battle.

Best luck with your picture search – local papers are probably the way to go, (and bear in mind a lot of titles have not yet been digitised, so a visit to the County Archive may be required).

Cheers,
Peter
 

Edited 7 November , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[George Rayner]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

FindMyPast have something they are calling a service record for him. However they have catalogued it as T. Read with no dates

This is the page referenced by Peter dated 29th June 1916

Looks like 7th Mun. F-Munster Fusiliers?

George

 

Edited 8 November , 2023 by George Rayner

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, George Rayner said:

This is the page referenced by Peter

Looks like 7th Mun. F-Munster Fusiliers?

George

 

No, not a ditto.

This is a Part II Orders (perhaps) extract listing reinforcements posted to 6th Bn on 29/6/16. His prev bn is not specified. He is noted as 1st class shot and 'times out'? 1.

[George Rayner]

Thanks Charlie

[charlie962]

New on FindmyPast seems to be medalroll transcriptions from NavalMilitaryPress. Could be incredibly useful with Findmypast's good search engine.

Here's their transcript:

Thomas Read

Britain, First World War Campaign Medals

Great Britain

First name(s) Thomas

Last name Read

Disembarkation year -

Disembarkation date -

Rank Private

Rank as transcribed Private.

Service number 14412

Regiment Dorsetshire Regiment

Previous unit 6 Dorset 14412 Pte (att. 9 Devon R.)

Medals awarded British War Medal And Victory Medal

Remarks D. of W. 27-9-16

Archive The National Archives

Archive series WO 329

Archive reference WO 329/1289

Record set Britain, First World War Campaign Medals

Category Military, armed forces & conflict

Subcategory First World War

Collections from Great Britain, UK None

 

Show 6 fewer rows

© Naval and Military Press Ltd

[George Rayner]

Fold 3 has a copy of his Soldier's Effects which says he died at St. George's Hospital, Stamford Street, S.E [London?]

George

[charlie962]

For comparison with that new Findmypast transcript here's an extract of the roll.

The 'attached 9 Devon Regiment' is interesting.

Note also that he is a Private although at the time of his posting June 1916 he was LanceCorporal. 

Edit..

LongLongTrail says this about 9th Devons:

"9th (Service) Battalion

Formed at Exeter on 15 September 1914 as part of K2 and attached as Divisional Troops to 20th (Light) Division. Initially at Rushmore near Aldershot. On 9 October 1914 the battalion moved to the firing ranges at Bisley; went in late November to Tournay Barracks at Aldershot; moved on 24 February 1915 to Haslemere and continued training there until it went to Southampton docks on 27 July 1915. It landed at Le Havre 28 July 1915.

8 August 1915 : came under orders of 20th Brigade, 7th Division..."

Edited 8 November , 2023 by charlie962

[George Rayner]

No photo but referencing him in FMP Newspapers as wounded

Bristol Times and Mirror 06 October 1916

'Dorsetshire Regiment, attd Devonshire Regiment Read,14412, T,  Salisbury

 

George

Edited 8 November , 2023 by George Rayner

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Jade,

Not knowing your level of knowledge I offer a reminder that:

Sole Leg = Sole Legatee = the sole recipient of a Will

HIs Will is available from https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/search-results - likely to be very simple  - probably along the lines of I give all my effects to my mother but it will have his signature

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Note also that he is a Private although at the time of his posting June 1916 he was LanceCorporal.

His substantive rank would have been Private but he seems to have been given by his battalion Commanding Officer the appointment of Lance Corporal [a role with some small authority - commonly almost as a trial to see if potentially later worth promoting to Corporal] and thus he had the right to wear a single rank chevron on each arm

M

Edited 8 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[George Rayner]

There appears to be an attestation form for him in Ancestry-to whom acknowledgement...

stating his age as 17 years 2 months

Referencing Peter's family research page 3 confirms 

...and he was discharged [page 2]

 

George

 

[charlie962]

On the same page of the medal roll is another 6th Bn man sent out on same date as Read who was killed 13/9/16 attached 9th Devons. 

WB Real, 15665.

This date could well be when Read was wounded? Worth tracking the 9th Devons war diary.

(I must go out and earn some money now to pay for these research site subs so I leave this task to others 😁)

Edited 8 November , 2023 by charlie962

[kenf48]

 

 

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

Worth tracking the 9th Devons war diary.

The war diary shows that on the 10th July1916, among others, 5 men were posted to the Battalion from the 6th Dorsetshire Regiment. Probably one of those soldiers.

 

[kenf48]

15 hours ago, Jade S said:

I'm trying to find a photo of the battalion that we can pick a face from - we're not very hopeful of a portrait image of him.

Hello and welcome to the GWF

He enlisted in the Special Reserve, legitimately given his declared age, of 17 years 2 months, this was his 'army age'.   It is well recorded that as the Special Reserve was always below its target strength they were not too particular as to age of recruits and as there was an expectation of no immediate overseas service they could remain at home until nineteen.  Of course the declaration of war on the 4th August 1914 meant that expectation changed and many Special Reservists were mobilised or 'called up'.  In 1914 he could not go on active service overseas until age nineteen but it looks as though he was either 'claimed' by his parents, or confessed his true age and was discharged on the 20th May 1915 having made a false declaration.

On the 4th May 1915 Pte 14415 Minshull enlisted under Duration of War Terms in Dorchester and was posted to the 3rd Bn Dorsetshire Regiment on the 13th May 1915. He gave his age on enlistment as nineteen. He was posted to the 7th (Reserve) Battalion in July 1915. He was posted to the 6th Battalion and embarked for France on the 27th April 1916.  It seems likely that once discharged Pte Read tried his luck at a different Recruiting Office (SDGW gives enlistment place as Dorchester) and again made a false statement as to age which was accepted.  The fact he was underage and had already been caught once means that he would probably have shied away from photographs in uniform.

Given the Medal Award (i.e.post 31/12/1915) it seems probable Pte Read was in the same draft to France as Pte Minshull, we can say with certainty he did not join the battalion in the field until after January 1916.  The 6th Battalion Diary gives a typed list of reinforcements at the the end of each month which makes the drafts fairly easy to track.

There is no indication on his papers that Minshull gave a false declaration as to age nor any explanation as to why he was posted to the 7th, a Home Service Battalion for nearly a year after enlistment.  The 6th Dorsetshire War diary shows 104 other ranks posted as reinforcements on the 25th April 1916.

(I am aware the dates appear to be slightly out of sync - the next reinforcement were from the Infantry Base Depot on the 30th May 1916).  

[PRC]

Thanks @George Rayner , @charlie962 and @kenf48

I really have got to stop my late night musings that inadvertently create such rabbit holes wonderful lines of enquiry for others to explore

4 hours ago, kenf48 said:

When joining the Special Reserve, legitimately given his declared age, of 17 years 2 months was his 'army age'.

Enlisting on the 15th April 1914 would imply a mid-January to mid February birth in order for him to have completed two months past his birthday.

And while a mid-February birth could at a push have come within the 42 days to allow the birth to be legally registered in the opening days of the April to June quarter, it would be a close run thing. Added to which the 1901 & 1911 Censuses would show him as 3 and 13 respectively, rather than 2 and 12. So I suspect we can't use the "2 months" as any really guide to when he was born.

17 hours ago, Jade S said:

his Dad was serving at the time and he would have been found out.

If only they were that joined up!

Father was absent on the 1901 Census of England & Wales  but would have been in his mid-forties so unlikely to be a recalled reservist serving in the Boer War, (the 1891 Census of England & Wales has him as a 33 year old Labourer living with his widower father so he wasn’t a career soldier). By the time of the outbreak of the Great War he would have been 56/57, so not sure what he was a Private in. Main reason for looking is that if the father had earlier service, particularly at the time son Thomas was born, then if his service record had survived separately it might include a verified date of birth for Thomas Junior.

@Jade S  – if you haven’t obtained a birth certificate for Thomas you might like to know that the General Registrars Office has relatively recently introduced a £2.50 option for a near instantaneous screenshot of his entry in the birth register. Unfortunately the service doesn’t cover all registers, and failing that there is a £7 service to get a pdf which usually takes about 5 working days - still cheaper and quicker than a pronted birth certificate. You can sign up to the GRO here https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates

And then use it’s “Search the GRO indexes” option to locate the certicate you want.

I’ve done a quick check, and Northam, a suburb of Southampton, fell within the Southampton civil registration district at the time Thomas (junior) was born. It doesn't even appear to have been considered a separate civil parish at the times of the 1891 and 1901 Censuses, where the civil parish is listed as St. Mary.  And St Mary Civil Parish is shown up until 1912 as falling within the area covered by the Southampton Civil Registration District. https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/southampton.html

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Note also that he is a Private although at the time of his posting June 1916 he was LanceCorporal. 

Apologies if I’m mis-undertanding. Wasn’t he a Lance-Corporal with the 7th Dorsets in the UK, a unit specific appointment. He would have reverted to Lance-Corporal edit - Private on being posted away, and it was up to his new Commanding Officer as to whether to appoint him Lance-Corporal again, assuming there were any vacancies for one.

4 hours ago, kenf48 said:

On the 4th May 1915 Pte 14415 Minshull enlisted under Duration of War Terms in Dorchester and was posted to the 3rd Bn Dorsetshire Regiment on the 13th May. He gave his age on enlistment as nineteen. He was posted to the 7th (Reserve) Battalion in July 1915. He was posted to the 6th Battalion and embarked for France on the 27th April 1916.  It seems likely that once discharged Pte Read tried his luck at a different Recruiting Office (SDGW gives enlistment place as Dorchester) and again made a false statement as to age which was accepted.  The fact he was underage and had already been caught once means that he would probably have shied away from photographs in uniform.

Given the Medal Award (i.e.post 31/12/1915) it seems probable Pte Read was in the same draft as Pte Minshull.  There is no indication on his papers that Minshull gave a false declaration as to age or no explanation as to why he was posted to the 7th, a Home Service Battalion for nearly a year.  The 6th Dorsetshire War diary shows 104 other rents posted as reinforcements on the 25th April 1916. (I am aware the dates appear to be slightly out of sync - the next reinforcement were from the Infantry Base Depot on the 30th May).  The 6th Diary gives a typed list of reinforcements at the the end of each month which makes the drafts fairly easy to track.

Wasn’t the draft Private Read was part of sent out in late June 1916 according to the Part II Orders on FMP? And he gets to the 9th Devons on the 10th July 1916. That sound like something organised at the Infantry Base Depot rather than Private Read getting anywhere near the 6th Dorsets in the field and then being sent on.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 8 November , 2023 by PRC
Brain and fingers not on same wavelength

[George Rayner]

Peter having looked elsewhere in his record it appears to be 2 days not months

George

Edited 8 November , 2023 by George Rayner

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Wasn’t the draft Private Read was part of sent out in late June 1916 according to the Part II Orders on FMP? A

Yes. The paper is headed 'proceeding to join the 6th Bn' and the footer 'this draft'

I post the whole page because there are a number of points of interest in the header, footer and text!

Edited 8 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Using that brand new (?) Record set on FindmyPast

"Britain, First World War Campaign Medals"

(6.5 million records)

and just putting keywords

"6 Dorset" "9 Devon"

I get 18 hits of which several (I've not checked all) are on that draft list above. Great potential for searches ! 

eg Head, Hookings, Read, Real, Quaintance, Victor, Sutton, Yewell ... (That makes 8 already and Kenf noted 5 in War Diary) edit- but see later post. fig was 70 not 5

Edited 8 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Looking at that Draft list, is column Times Out a record of number of postings overseas (incl this one?) and the Bn previously served with overseas? 

Edited 8 November , 2023 by charlie962

[PRC]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Looking at that Draft list, is column Times Out a record of number of postings overseas (incl this one?) and the Bn previously served with overseas?

I'm reading it as first time out for those with the entry 1 - none of them have a previous unit, and Snow & Wilmer, both 2 times men had previously served with the 6th Battalion so a dash doesn't indicate that.

What a shame his service records hasn't survived - first class shot but retained in the UK for over a year, goes out with a largish draft intended for the 6th Battalion, Dorsets, but instead is part of a small group that ends up with the 9th Devons, their "time" with the 6th Dorsets probably being admin only.

There is a story there, but we will probably never know what it is !

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

I'm reading it as first time out for those with the entry 1 - none of them have a previous unit, and Snow & Wilmer, both 2 times men had previously served with the 6th Battalion so a dash doesn't indicate that.

My logic is that all the 1 times men are going with 6th bn. Thus they have no previous overseas bn thus dash.

Some 2 times men had previously been out with 6th bn and are shown as such. If the man had been out with a different Bn or even regiment then that is shown. 

There's a 3 times man, Frampton, who must have been out on two previous occasions with 1st bn.

That Draft list would be an interesting exercise for those who like following the fate of a draft. Several members have done similar exercise on other units. Such a rare bit of paper.

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

There is a story there, but we will probably never know what it is !

Researching the draft may even tell that story? 

1916 those rare IBD diaries that survive sometimes have quite a lot of detail. Worth a look, if someone knows the relevant IBD**

 

**Edit. Perhaps 3 IBD at Rouen, per Craig @ss002d6252 

Their war diary seems to be available for the period, here at Nat Archives:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/1c83d45ebc2543b8b394aa29d4010859

Edited 8 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

 

The war diary shows that on the 10th July1916, among others, 5 men were posted to the Battalion from the 6th Dorsetshire Regiment. Probably one of those soldiers.

 

The figure for ex 6th Dorsets is 70. The number 5 refers to the DCLIs .

The 9th Devons, in the period 1-3 July 1916, had suffered

ORs killed 133

ORs wounded 259

ORs missing 55

Total 447 ORs.

So clearly their need for reinforcements was great.

 

But as you say, most probable in that lot.

Edited 8 November , 2023 by charlie962