Matthew Brown (S/15650) Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) (1887-1966)

[smartin0501]

Evening! I'm currently doing some research on my great-great grandfather Matthew Brown, and hoping I can rely on your collective expertise to clarify some of his war service. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

I've obtained the following information from his Service Record, but am having some trouble deciphering some of the pages that detail his postings.

• Matthew Brown voluntarily enlisted into the regular army for war service only by short service attestation under the Derby Scheme on 4th December 1915. He chose deferred service, was transferred to army reserve, and was in Group 34. At this time he was married, and lived at 27 Corbiehall, Bo’ness, West Lothian.
• He was mobilised and posted to the Black Watch on 5th June 1916 at Glencorse.
• He was posted as a private (No. S/15650) to the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) Depot on 6th June 1916. Would anyone happen to know where the Depot was?
• On the 10th June 1916, it seems he was possibly posted to 3rd Battalion, which I understand was a depot/training battalion based in Nigg, Wester Ross. Would this be correct? I think I can decipher a 3 in his service record below, and he was listed as 'chemical worker, Private No 15650 3rd Battalion Black Watch)' on his son George Brown's birth certificate on 21st November 1916.
• On the 18th November 1916, he was posted with the ?8th Battalion Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) to the Expeditionary Force in France. It's hard to make out the 8th Battalion on the image below, but information from earlier in his service record confirms he was with the 8th Battalion.
• At some point between November 1916 and November 1918, Matthew Brown was posted to the Depot and then to the 4th (Reserve) Battalion of the Royal Highlanders (Black Watch). I can't make out the dates of these postings on his service record. Would anyone know how to clarify when he returned from France and were he was based while at the Depot and in the 4th Battalion?
•  He was transferred compulsorily from the Black Watch (4th) to Army Service Corps (Motor Transport) Sydenham Depot in the rank of Private (Regimental No. M/427952) on 30th November 1918.
• Matthew Brown (Private, Army Service Corps (Motor Transport) Sydenham Depot Regimental No. M/427952) was demobilised age 32 on 25th March 1919. At this time their address was 64 South Street, Bo’ness, West Lothian. He had 30% disability due to a gunshot wound of the left forearm, attributable to his military service. He was awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.

I'm hoping that you might have a) better eyes to distinguish the dates on his service record and b) knowledge about the Royal Highlanders and where Matthew Brown might have been in the time he was with them. I'm fairly new to researching the first world war, so I'd be very grateful for any pointers in the right direction of where I might be able to find out more about his war experience.

Best wishes,

Stacey Miller

 

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum !

6 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

Would anyone happen to know where the Depot was?

I believe it was in Perth

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

11 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

On the 10th June 1916, it seems he was possibly posted to 3rd Battalion, which I understand was a depot/training battalion based in Nigg, Wester Ross. Would this be correct?

Before the outbreak of the war the 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion was co-located at the Depot.

Upon the outbreak of war the 3rd Battalion moved to a pre-arranged war station - at Nigg for the BW. As you say, it then became a Reserve Battalion for training and draft finding purposes.

This was replicated across the country for all Regiments

BW here:

Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

[charlie962]

This copy of his service record on Findmypast is much clearer than that found on Ancestry.

[RussT]

18 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

On the 18th November 1916, he was posted with the ?8th Battalion Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) to the Expeditionary Force in France. It's hard to make out the 8th Battalion on the image below, but information from earlier in his service record confirms he was with the 8th Battalion.

That's correct and the 8th Bn aligns with his Medal Roll.

As Charlie said, the FMP versions tend to be much clearer

Russ

[smartin0501]

8 minutes ago, RussT said:

Before the outbreak of the war the 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion was co-located at the Depot.

Upon the outbreak of war the 3rd Battalion moved to a pre-arranged war station - at Nigg for the BW. As you say, it then became a Reserve Battalion for training and draft finding purposes.

This was replicated across the country for all Regiments

BW here:

Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

Thanks for the quick response! That's great, so it would make sense that he was sent to the 3rd Battallion for training before heading to France with the 8th?

 

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

This copy of his service record on Findmypast is much clearer than that found on Ancestry.

 

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

This copy of his service record on Findmypast is much clearer than that found on Ancestry.

Thank you, that's much clearer! I've been going cross eyed over the ancestry copy

[charlie962]

21 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

clarify when he returned from France

Posted to Depot 27/3/18, I think. This might suggest he was wounded at the start of the German Spring Offensive (21/3/18) and evac back to England? 

[RussT]

3 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

so it would make sense that he was sent to the 3rd Battalion for training before heading to France with the 8th?

Absolutely - and 3 to 4 months was a typical training period.

He would have most likely gone with a group of others - a draft - having joined at a similar time and trained together.

[smartin0501]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Posted to Depot 27/3/18, I think. This might suggest he was wounded at the start of the German Spring Offensive (21/3/18) and evac back to England? 

That's longer in France than I though. What a shame, his third son (my great-grandfather) was born just a few days after he was posted to France. Sad to think he might have gone for so long without meeting his son. That would fit though, as he did end up with a gunshot wound of the left forearm.

[RussT]

He suffered a wound on 12/10/1917 - with others - it would be useful to look at the War Diary to see what was happening

Russ

(Image courtesy FMP)

 

[charlie962]

Note he was previously wounded. Reported in the Daily Casualty List published 22/11/17, such publication usually being about a month after the actual wounding. There is another scrap indexed by Findmypast that tells us actual wounding was 12/10/17 with the 8th Bn. That wounding apparently not severe enough to require evac to England.

Another doc on Findmypast tells us in May 1917 hewas in D Company. Edit,- see later post. 

 

Edited 4 November , 2023 by charlie962

[RussT]

A good narrative of the actions conducted by the 8/BW over the period 10th to 14th October 1917 in their War Diary here:

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany), 1914-1920

Russ

[charlie962]

He also is reported as wounded in The Scotsman published 11/6/17. This even earlier wounding would probably be early May 1917. That would fit with an admission to 18th General Hospital 3/5/17 that is indexed on FindmyPast and that I mentioned earlier showed him as D company 8th Black Watch.

[RussT]

50 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

I can't make out the dates of these postings on his service record. Would anyone know how to clarify when he returned from France and were he was based while at the Depot and in the 4th Battalion?

I agree it looks like 27/03/1918 at the Depot but this does not necessarily mean the date he returned to the UK. Unfortunately, it looks like some key pages are missing from his Service Papers that would have ordinarily answered these questions easily.

He might have spent some considerable time recovering from his wound, that was inflicted in October 1917, at various medical facilities in the France and the UK. Upon recovery, he was then evidently posted back to the Depot in the Spring 1918 only to be transferred to the ASC on 30/11/1918 along with a batch of other BW men (Medal Roll refers) who were also most likely at the BW Depot at the same time.

Russ

(Image courtesy of Ancestry)

 

[RussT]

17 hours ago, smartin0501 said:

was demobilised age 32 on 25th March 1919.

He wasn't actually demobilised on that date - he was transferred to the Army Reserve Class Z on this date - see LLT here:

British army reserves and reservists - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

Russ

[RussT]

1 hour ago, smartin0501 said:

I'm fairly new to researching the first world war,

I think you did an excellent job - making it easier for us to add/clarify a bit here and there to your well set out timeline.

And I can tell you have also already managed to see his Pension Index Cards.

Regards

Russ

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, RussT said:

agree it looks like 27/03/1918 at the Depot but this does not necessarily mean the date he returned to the UK.

I still think it probably is his posting to depot on return to UK following what seems like a third (edited) wounding.

 I think this is the March 1918 'possible' wounding I referred to earlier.

Findmypast newspapers, Linlithgow Gazette 5/4/18, Bo'ness men:

This sort of detailed report would come from the family and appear in newspaper quicker than the official Daily Casualty List 

If somebody could check the NLS Casualty lists for late April 1918 that would confirm it.

Edited 5 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

You might wish to read the Battalion history which was included in Vol 3 of the Black Watch in the Great War. Available to view free on archive.org 

https://archive.org/details/black-watch-vol3

[smartin0501]

13 hours ago, RussT said:

I think you did an excellent job - making it easier for us to add/clarify a bit here and there to your well set out timeline.

And I can tell you have also already managed to see his Pension Index Cards.

Regards

Russ

9 hours ago, charlie962 said:

You might wish to read the Battalion history which was included in Vol 3 of the Black Watch in the Great War.

Thank you, that's very kind. I found out what I could from Ancestry, but didn't really know where to go after that to fill in the gaps. This has highlighted that I need to get myself onto find my past! There seems to be a lot of useful information there. And thank you all for the helpful hints about where to look for further information. Going to have a good look through the war diaries and ebook linked above.

 

14 hours ago, RussT said:

He suffered a wound on 12/10/1917 - with others - it would be useful to look at the War Diary to see what was happening

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

He also is reported as wounded in The Scotsman published 11/6/17. This even earlier wounding would probably be early May 1917. That would fit with an admission to 18th General Hospital 3/5/17 that is indexed on FindmyPast and that I mentioned earlier showed him as D company 8th Black Watch.

12 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I still think it probably is his posting to depot on return to UK following what seems like a third (edited) wounding.

 I think this is the March 1918 'possible' wounding I referred to earlier.

Findmypast newspapers, Linlithgow Gazette 5/4/18, Bo'ness men:

Good finds! that would make sense and certainly fit with the timeline of him returning to the Depot around 27/03/1918. Interesting that he was likely wounded three times. I will try to look through the war diaries at these points to see if I can find out any more information.

If he was at the Depot from Spring to November 1918 this would also fit with the timeline of the conception of his fourth son, who was probably conceived late September/early October 1918. If the Depot was based at Perth, is it likely that he would have had the opportunity for leave to visit his family in Bo'ness at this time?

It looks like from the FMP Service Record he was transferred from the Depot to the 4th Reserve Battalion on ?1/11/18, just a few weeks before he was then transferred to the ASC on 30/11/1918. Sorry if this is a daft question, but I can't find the 4th battalion on the Royal Highlander's page on the LLT (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-highlanders-black-watch/), would this mean the 3/4th Battalion that was based in Edinburgh at this point? The 1/4th and 2/4th looked like they had disbanded by this point.

Best wishes,

Stacey

 

 

[RussT]

2 hours ago, smartin0501 said:

Sorry if this is a daft question, but I can't find the 4th battalion on the Royal Highlander's page on the LLT (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-highlanders-black-watch/), would this mean the 3/4th Battalion that was based in Edinburgh at this point?

If you click on that link and scroll down a bit you come to this description:

Before the war, there were so-called Territorial Force (TF) Battalions (part-time soldiers). In the BW case these consisted of the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th TF Battalions. They were distributed around the various localities which encompassed the BW catchment area.

When war broke out, many TF soldiers agreed to serve overseas and they were put into a so-called 1st Line of their respective TF Battalion, and those that did not wish to serve overseas went into a sibling 2nd Line of that Battalion. So was formed the 1/4th, 2/4th and the 1/5th, 2/5th etc etc.

As the war progressed the 2nd Line Battalions also eventually became liable for overseas service - and both the 1st Lines and 2 Lines were then reinforced by men who trained in a newly created 3rd Line Battalion - hence 3/4th, 3/5th etc etc Battalions were formed

In April 1916, the 3/4th, 3/5th etc etc Battalions were renamed simply the 4th (Reserve), 5th (Reserve) etc etc Battalions and performed the same training role as did the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion which Brown joined initially.

Such a proliferation of Training Reserve Battalions became increasingly inefficient so it was decided on 1st September 1916 to consolidate the 4th (Reserve), 5th (Reserve) etc etc Battalions in one single Reserve Battalion, which they simply called the 4th (Reserve) Bn - i.e. the 4th absorbed the 5th, 6th and 7th Reserve Battalions. And, as you note, it was in Edinburgh.

The 3rd (Reserve) Battalion did not take part in this re-organisation and the Reserve Battalions of the New Army were consolidated into nationwide Training Reserve Brigades also on 01/09/1916.

Regards

Russ

 

 

[RussT]

2 hours ago, smartin0501 said:

It looks like from the FMP Service Record he was transferred from the Depot to the 4th Reserve Battalion on ?1/11/18, just a few weeks before he was then transferred to the ASC on 30/11/1918.

I think the FMP version is clear - it was on the 1st November 1918 that he was posted from the Depot to the 4th (Reserve) Battalion.

 

2 hours ago, smartin0501 said:

If the Depot was based at Perth, is it likely that he would have had the opportunity for leave to visit his family in Bo'ness at this time?

That would be very likely.

[smartin0501]

28 minutes ago, RussT said:

consolidate the 4th (Reserve), 5th (Reserve) etc etc Battalions in one single Reserve Battalion, which they simply called the 4th (Reserve) Bn

Fantastic, thanks for the explanation, that's cleared things up for me.

[smartin0501]

Evening, 

Just jumping back on this threat with a quick question I'm hoping you could help with. I've just discovered that Matthew Brown's brother in law James Heath was also in the Royal Highlanders and his service number was 15651, the number following Matthew Brown's 15650. Does this mean that they would have been posted to the Royal Highlanders at the same time? Is it likely they would have served together in the same battalion? I've been unable to locate any further service record info for James Heath, and just got this info from his pension ledger.

Many thanks for your help.

[charlie962]

34 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

Evening, 

Just jumping back on this threat with a quick question I'm hoping you could help with. I've just discovered that Matthew Brown's brother in law James Heath was also in the Royal Highlanders and his service number was 15651, the number following Matthew Brown's 15650. Does this mean that they would have been posted to the Royal Highlanders at the same time? Is it likely they would have served together in the same battalion? I've been unable to locate any further service record info for James Heath, and just got this info from his pension ledger.

Many thanks for your help.

You probably need to search with the prefix S/ (or just put * before the number)

This will give you a medal index card and a silver war badge record for James Heath .

The medal roll only shows overseas service with 9th Black Watch 

Edited 17 November , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

35 minutes ago, smartin0501 said:

Does this mean that they would have been posted to the Royal Highlanders at the same time? Is it likely they would have served together in the same battalion?

They would probably have joined same day and Depot. They may have been posted initially from Depot to the same Battalion but not guaranteed. Try looking for records for other 'near number' men and see if this supports such an idea.

Charlie