Richard Birs Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 Hi guys looking for any information regarding his service record ext.Henry Charle William Gilson born1893 West Ham London Joined up1914 was posted to Bauna Vista Barracks Gibraltar. He was a driver and i believe made Sargent? He survived the war. Could have ended up with a Yorkshire Regiment? I can’t seem to find when he was demobed what medals ext? Thanks for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 (edited) Richard, This will take you to William's MIC. He was appointed Colour Sergeant:- UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk The British War and Victory Medals Roll shows he served with 3rd Middlesex Regiment, and also with the West African Field Force {W.A.F.F.} in German East Africa:- UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk This is his 1914 Star Roll:- UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk The War Diary for 3 Middlesex can be downloaded here for free, once you register:- 3 Battalion Middlesex Regiment | The National Archives Regards, Alf McM Edited 31 October , 2023 by alf mcm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Birs Posted 31 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2023 12 minutes ago, alf mcm said: Richard, This will take you to William's MIC. He was appointed Colour Sergeant:- UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk The British War and Victory Medals Roll shows he served with 3rd Middlesex Regiment, and also with the West African Field Force {W.A.F.F.} in German East Africa:- UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk This is his 1914 Star Roll:- UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk The War Diary for 3 Middlesex can be downloaded here for free, once you register:- 3 Battalion Middlesex Regiment | The National Archives Regards, Alf McM Thanks Alf. I have Ancestry but just got a card up which didn’t give me any real info. Still learning i guess. Thanks again Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Birs Posted 31 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2023 Alf just started to look.My man is Henry Charles William Gilson. Not Gibson. I know he was a driver in the 7th Middlesex, and in1914 was at Buana Vista Barrack Gibraltar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 He was commissioned after the war 29/12/22 and in 1938 is in the IARO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 1938 Indian Army List, found on The Genealogist. See half way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 (edited) Findmypast has indexed his record thus. First name(s) Henry Charles William Last name Gilson Rank Lieutenant Colonel Year 1922-45 Regiment - Regiment as transcribed Army in India Reserve of Officers Collection area India Office Records and Private Papers Date of commission 22 Dec Emergency Commission 1922 Date of release (28 Aug 1945) Start date 1922 End date 1945 Date range 1922-1945 Record reference IOR/L/MIL/14/1257 Scope and content Number: RO 3366; Highest Rank: Lieutenant Colonel; Regiment: Army in India Reserve of Officers; Date of commission: 22 Dec Emergency Commission 1922; Date of release: (28 Aug 1945) Country India Record set Indian Army Records Of Service 1900-1947 I'm hoping someone will use this to get back to the Great War ? Edited 31 October , 2023 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 He seems to be in the 1921 Census as Army Overseas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Richard Birs said: Henry Charle William Gilson At WFA/Fold3 there is a [unspecified disability claim] pension index card for Henry Charles William GILSON, 6189814, York and Lancaster Regiment [No other military details shown] That's a seven digit number - so a post-war service number = His records might still be with the MoD/TNA and thus accessible from them. Edit - see below, next post. There is also a Chelsea Hospital claim reference number 35859/G as well as a Ministry of Pensions one of 11/GEN/2727/IX - from which @ss002d6252 might be able to date the claim for us. M Edited 31 October , 2023 by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 I note he is listed at MoD [of course it might be on its way to TNA for digitisation - but that might be a long wait there] 11005 ADT000228750 File 6189814 NULL GILSON H NULL NULL 1893-04-17 Can apply https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson - potentially at some cost, but probably quicker M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 1 hour ago, charlie962 said: He seems to be in the 1921 Census as Army Overseas? Image courtesy of Find My Past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Birs Posted 31 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2023 2 hours ago, charlie962 said: Findmypast has indexed his record thus. First name(s) Henry Charles William Last name Gilson Rank Lieutenant Colonel Year 1922-45 Regiment - Regiment as transcribed Army in India Reserve of Officers Collection area India Office Records and Private Papers Date of commission 22 Dec Emergency Commission 1922 Date of release (28 Aug 1945) Start date 1922 End date 1945 Date range 1922-1945 Record reference IOR/L/MIL/14/1257 Scope and content Number: RO 3366; Highest Rank: Lieutenant Colonel; Regiment: Army in India Reserve of Officers; Date of commission: 22 Dec Emergency Commission 1922; Date of release: (28 Aug 1945) Country India Record set Indian Army Records Of Service 1900-1947 I'm hoping someone will use this to get back to the Great War ? Thank you so much this information is great. I know he started in 1914 as a driver,presumably a private? So to gain such a rank seems pretty good.I’m guessing he became a career soldier? Many thanks Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Birs Posted 31 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2023 31 minutes ago, Allan1892 said: Image courtesy of Find My Past Allen thank you very much,it seems he served in many places and received many promotions. 43 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: I note he is listed at MoD [of course it might be on its way to TNA for digitisation - but that might be a long wait there] 11005 ADT000228750 File 6189814 NULL GILSON H NULL NULL 1893-04-17 Can apply https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson - potentially at some cost, but probably quicker M Thanks for advice Allen has come up with some brilliant and surprising stats thanks again Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Birs Posted 31 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2023 1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said: At WFA/Fold3 there is a [unspecified disability claim] pension index card for Henry Charles William GILSON, 6189814, York and Lancaster Regiment [No other military details shown] That's a seven digit number - so a post-war service number = His records might still be with the MoD/TNA and thus accessible from them. Edit - see below, next post. There is also a Chelsea Hospital claim reference number 35859/G as well as a Ministry of Pensions one of 11/GEN/2727/IX - from which @ss002d6252 might be able to date the claim for us. M Thanks for help Matlock He was indeed a career soldier serving untill the fourties’ and being a Lieutenant colonel Thanks again Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 4 minutes ago, Richard Birs said: He was indeed a career soldier serving untill the fourties’ and being a Lieutenant colonel Claiming a disability pension and continuing to serve were not necessarily mutually exclusive, providing the disability was minor and did not impact on service in the longer term. Would seem worth exploring the 6189814 number and that retained file for his OR service as well as his officer's papers for his commissioned service There may be cross-over - but who knows? For later commissioned service - worth also looking at the London Gazette under his full name and then trying variants of name and his initials. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Birs Posted 31 October , 2023 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2023 26 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Claiming a disability pension and continuing to serve were not necessarily mutually exclusive, providing the disability was minor and did not impact on service in the longer term. Would seem worth exploring the 6189814 number and that retained file for his OR service as well as his officer's papers for his commissioned service There may be cross-over - but who knows? For later commissioned service - worth also looking at the London Gazette under his full name and then trying variants of name and his initials. M Thanks again. Was it unusual for a young man to enter the army as a private? definitely a driver his first posting was Gibraltar.And go on to reach his final rank? Or was the losses so great it was possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 Richard, I unfortunately managed to mis-read your original post. Apologies for any confusion. This appears to be Charles' MIC;- UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk He was awarded the 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and British Victory Medal as a Private;- UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk The BW & VM Roll shows the different battalions he served in;- UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 Richard, 'Private' was the usual starting rank in the Infantry. 'Driver' was a rank used mainly in the Artillery, and usually applies to a man 'driving' a horse drawn wagon or gun limber. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Richard Birs said: Was it unusual for a young man to enter the army as a private? definitely a driver his first posting was Gibraltar.And go on to reach his final rank? Or was the losses so great it was possible? If you can explain your knowledge of this it might help us. Do you know when he was in Gibraltar? Driver as a rank or a role? Any definitive evidence such as papers or perhaps correspondence or even not-definitive evidence such as a photo? Where did he live pre-war/during/after war? Driver certainly could suggest RA, or perhaps ASC Moving on ... I think his rise to Lt Col. was probably post-war. The 6189814 number appears to have been a post-war one for an OR. During the war OR soldiers had a Regimental/Corps number [typically one to six digits long - some may have had pre-fix letters and numbers too] . Shortly after the war existing, renlisting and enlisting OR got a Service number up to seven digits long. Officers didn't have a Regimental/Corps number during the war during the war. After the war officers started to get Service numbers too - but these came from a different tranch starting low and certainly not reaching seven digits. That's why I think it is also worth looking at 6189814 - for OR service. From 1938 & 1943 London Gazette entries for Henry Charles William GILSON we can see him as recorded as in the Army in India Reserve of Officers It could perhaps be that he rose from a Pte/Driver, but later I think. We can't really discuss this non-GW period much here on GWF but the Army in India and WW2 certainly seems to have offered enhanced promotional prospects for some. WW2Talk.com covers the later war. M Edit: A point to note, though the PIC indicates 6189814 as a York & Lancaster Regiment number the LLT suggests that it was in a block of Middlesex Regiment numbers [6188001 to 6278000] = ??? Edited 31 October , 2023 by Matlock1418 Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, alf mcm said: This appears to be Charles' MIC;- UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk He was awarded the 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and British Victory Medal as a Private;- Looking only at the MIC [I can't see the Medal Rolls]: Charles GILSON - Middlesex Regt. 6899, G/42327, L/19033, 808 His BWM & VM are as a Sgt. M Edited 31 October , 2023 by Matlock1418 remove error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 (edited) Retyping the bit I removed from above - A potential fly in the ointment is that the a BWM & VM were returned along with a duplicate 1914-15 Star. A serving officer would undoubtedly have applied for his BWM & VM medals, even later and as late as by WW2, and I see no evidence on this MIC = ??? M Edit: See below - to me now it looks like three duplicated medals were returned and three retained Edited 31 October , 2023 by Matlock1418 strike/replace and edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 M, In addition to the medal rolls I have linked there are 3 others awarding medals under regimental number 808. These all have red lines through them and comments which i will have to check. Perhaps these are the returned medals. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, alf mcm said: In addition to the medal rolls I have linked there are 3 others awarding medals under regimental number 808. These all have red lines through them and comments which i will have to check. Perhaps these are the returned medals. Alf, The more I read the MIC the more I think there were duplicated BWM & VM issued & returned as well as a duplicated 1914-15 Star issue & returned - note to self: read more carefully and don't jump to typing quite so fast. = Now it rather looks like the original Pip, Squeak & Wilfred trio was sent/received/retained. Your check will probably not do any harm. M Edited 31 October , 2023 by Matlock1418 tweak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 M, I will try and check tonight. Working just now. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 31 October , 2023 Share Posted 31 October , 2023 6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: There is also a Chelsea Hospital claim reference number 35859/G as well as a Ministry of Pensions one of 11/GEN/2727/IX - from which @ss002d6252 might be able to date the claim for us. The /G suffix is not one I've seen before. The 'known' wartime ranges are D, E, F and H. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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