Pte Joseph McVeigh, born Downpatrick, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Boer War & RAMC in WW1

[George Millar]

Joseph McVeigh (McVey) was born on the 5th April 1877 in Irish Street, Downpatrick, one of 7 children born to parents Patrick McVeigh & Bridget Mullon (Mallon?).  On the 24th May 1893 in Downpatrick at the age of 18 Joseph enlisted into the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers with a Service N° 4307. He listed his occupation as a “Labourer” and also that he was presently serving with the 5th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles Militia. After his medical examination he was passed “Fit” for Army service and posted to the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Depot in Omagh on the 28th May 1893. Following his initial training he was posted to the 1st Battalion of the Regiment on the 4th September 1893. However, on the 15th November 1894 he was listed as having “Deserted”. He was then apprehended on the 28th February 1895 and tried by a District Court Martial on the 13th March 1895, found “Guilty” and sentenced to 84 days imprisonment with hard labour. He returned to duty on the 4th June 1895 and then posted to the 2nd Battalion of the Regiment on the 12th October 1895 which was serving in India at that time.

When war broke out in October 1899 in the Boer Republic, the 1st battalion of the Regiment who were stationed in Ireland sailed for South Africa and became part of the 5th (Irish) Brigade. Joseph and the 2nd battalion were still in India but arrived in South Africa at the close of 1901. Joseph served with the battalion in South Africa until the 10th September 1902 when he returned back to the UK and posted to the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Depot. Later on the 5th December 1902 he was transferred to the Army Reserve.

On the 29th November 1903 Joseph married Margaret McVeigh in Downpatrick Roman Catholic Chapel. He was living in Circular Road in Downpatrick and listed his occupation as a “Labourer” in the marriage record. On the 8th May 1905 Joseph re-engaged with the army and posted to Section “D” Army Reserve and was discharged on the 17th September 1909 in Belfast.  

By the time of the 1911 Census of Ireland, the couple had had 2 children but one of them had unfortunately died at only 7 months old from whooping cough. The family were now living in N° 7 Mary Street in Downpatrick. However, there is also another record for the 1911 Census in which Joseph was working at the Downpatrick Asylum in the Russell’s Quarter of Downpatrick as an “Asylum Assistant”.

When the First World War broke out in 1914 Joseph didn’t join up right away but he enlisted on the 31st March 1915 in Belfast and posted to the Royal Army Medical Corps at Aldershot on the 4th April 1915 with a Service N° 57858. He was now 40 years old. I’m presuming that he had some initial training before being posted to his new unit. He was posted to N° 70 Field Ambulance which was in the 23rd Division. Joseph is listed as embarking on the 27th August 1915 which is about the time most of the 23rd Division had embarked for France. Joseph would have served with the Division during most of the battles in which it participated.

Unfortunately, Joseph’s wife Margaret died on the 31st August 1916 at the age of 34 years old, the cause of her death being “Pulmonary Tuberculosis”. From her death record it seems that Joseph had been able to return to Ireland as it was he who registered her death.

However, from Joseph’s service record it can be seen that he wasn’t exactly a “Model” soldier committing numerous offences between end of 1916 right through to the end of 1918. Perhaps his wife’s death had infected him mentally in some way, one will never know for sure. One of his offences which was committed on the 13th November 1916 was listed as “Neglect of Duty – when appointed barber to the Field Ambulance failing to shave the patients” and also “Absent without leave from 10 am to 6 pm (8 hours)”. For this he was given 4 days C C. However, in spite of these offences he was awarded a “Good Conduct Badge” on the 31st March 1917. Joseph was transferred to the Labour Corps on the 23rd December 1918 with a new Service N° 658746 and was then discharged to Class “Z” Army Reserve on the 20th February 1919.

He returned to his native Downpatrick and on the 23rd October 1919 remarried, this time to Annie Carr who was a “Widow”. Annie had been married to James Carr, a soldier who had also served in the Boer War with the 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and who died in the Battle of Le Cateau on the 26th August 1914 serving with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Service N° 6182.

Joseph & his new wife Annie had a son, Patrick Bernard McVeigh born on the 10th June 1920 in Downpatrick. Joseph then lived a full life dying at the age of 88 years old on the 13th May 1965. He was living at N° 2 Edward Street in Downpatrick at the time of his death.

And now for the questions:

The first question relates to his medals for his service in WW1. The 1915 Star, BWM & VM are all listed to the Labour Corps. I was wondering why if he had served in the RAMC for most of his service and only in December 1918 in the Labour Corps why his medals wouldn’t have been attributed to the RAMC and not the Labour Corps?

My second question relates to his second marriage. As previously stated, he married Annie Carr, a widow of James Carr. In the marriage record for James Car to Annie which took place in St Colman’s Roman Catholic Chapel in Kilkeel on the 3rd July 1906 she is listed as Annie McNaughton whose father was William McNaughton.  William McNaughton was married to Annie Gill on the 16th July 1883 in Downpatrick and I cannot find a birth record for an Annie McNaughton born to them who was born on the 13th August 1881 (date given in the Pension Ledger & Index Card for James Carr). However, I have found a birth record for Anna Maria Cunningham, born “Illegitimate” on the 13th August 1881 in the Workhouse, Kilkeel (mother Caroline Cunningham). I was wondering if this could be the correct person, perhaps William being the father?  It is the correct date and would tie in with the marriage of her to James Carr taking place in Kilkeel. She was living with her mother Caroline at N° 35 Newry Street in Kilkeel in the 1901 Census of Ireland.

I would welcome and appreciate any comments or information from members of the forum.

George

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, George Millar said:

The first question relates to his medals for his service in WW1. The 1915 Star, BWM & VM are all listed to the Labour Corps. I was wondering why if he had served in the RAMC for most of his service and only in December 1918 in the Labour Corps why his medals wouldn’t have been attributed to the RAMC and not the Labour Corps?

Medals were named to the first unit in which he served in a theatre of war, i.e. '57858 RAMC'. The medals were sent out by registered post this action was administered by the Record Office of his last unit (i.e. Labour Corps Nottingham).  Hence the soldier was listed on the medal roll of that Regiment/Corps.

The medals were sent to either the address on his discharge papers on demobilisation, or to the address of the next of kin shown on his record if the soldier was dead.

For copyright reasons please acknowledge sources of document which you post on the forum and note there is no need to post the entire page.

 

[corisande]

1 hour ago, George Millar said:

I cannot find a birth record for an Annie McNaughton born to them who was born on the 13th August 1881 (date given in the Pension Ledger & Index Card for James Carr). However, I have found a birth record for Anna Maria Cunningham, born “Illegitimate” on the 13th August 1881 in the Workhouse, Kilkeel (mother Caroline Cunningham). I was wondering if this could be the correct person, perhaps William being the father? 

That seems the most likely scenario.

It is the "balance of probability" but it does not prove it.

Having spent some time on Irish GRO, I can neither prove, nor disprove that Annie McNaughton and Anna Maria Cunningham are the same person

The weakness I think is that if she was born Cunningham in 1881 and was still Cunningham in 1901, why would she change to McNaughton to marry in 1906

 

[corisande]

The 1901 census has Caroline and her (large family) in 35  Newry Street , Kilkeel

 

when Annie McNaughton marries in 1906, her address is Newry St, Kilkeel

Adding more, but not yet conclusive,  evidence to them being the same people

 

[corisande]

For what its worth, Caroline's children were all born in Kilkeel

• Anna, as in this thread, born illegitimate, no father, in 1881
• Henry Bradley, born 1891, son of John & Mary Bradley (nee Carvill). No obvious connection to Caroline Cunningham, but has him as a son in 1901 census
• Patrick. born illegitimate in March 1887. No father
• Caroline. born illegitimate in Nov 1889  No father

 

[corisande]

And in 1911 census more appear

• Patrick is as in 1901 census
• Henry Bradly is now Henry Cunningham
• They have been joined by John Harold, another illegitimate son, whose birth gives a father
• 
• James J Cull is merely given as a relative. Make what you like of James Cull being son of Caroline or her daughter Caroline

Edited 30 October , 2023 by corisande

[George Millar]

Thanks kenf & corisande.

Kenf, If I am understanding what you have said, his medals would have been stamped as RAMC with a Service N° 57858 but issued by the Labour Corps office in Nottingham.

corisande, I did have the info on the census but thanks again for taking the time to comment. As you said, I also couldn't come to the conclusion it was the same person as she was listed as Cunningham in the 1901 census so why would she have changed that to McNaughton for her marriage to James Carr in 1906.  As you have highlighted, most if not all of Caroline's children were "Illegitimate".

For info : William McNaughton & Annie Gill had two daughters following their marriage Lizzie McNaughton born 25th May 1884 in Irish Street, Downpatrick & Mary Jane McNaughton born 5th November 1885 in John Street, Downpatrick but as I said I couldn't find a record for Annie McNaughton whose father was William.

I think a bit more digging is required but I do now believe that Annie Cunningham & Annie McNaughton were possibly the same person (although for the moment I can't prove it).

Thanks once again for your comments.

George

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, George Millar said:

Thanks kenf & corisande.

Kenf, If I am understanding what you have said, his medals would have been stamped as RAMC with a Service N° 57858 but issued by the Labour Corps office in Nottingham. 

Yes as stated named to first unit posted out and associated admin by his last. The Corps (Labour MGC etc) Medal Rolls seldom list intermediate units as only the first and last were relevant to the process.

[George Millar]

Kenf,

Many thanks for the confirmation.

George

[George Millar]

corisande,

The birth record of James Joseph Cunningham born 1908 in Kilkeel that you have listed is the son of Caroline Cunningham, the daughter of Caroline Cunningham. This was before her marriage to James Cole in 1910 in Kilkeel. For some reason James Joseph is also listed in the 1911 Census with James, Caroline & their other son Patrick Henry Cole at N° 51 Newry Street in Kilkeel. He is listed in this census as James J Cole aged 2. I had a look for a birth record for James Joseph Cole and I cannot find one so I believe that the record that you have found under Cunningham is him.

George