Manchester regiment Pte Edward Downes 52878

[edward hoare]

I am trying to track down what my great grandfather did during the great war. so far I know as I have his medals that his serial number was 52878. He was born in 1898 and from Nantwich, Cheshire. he joined the Manchester regiment but I do not know what battalion he was in or how to find out. he survived the war and we are told that he was wounded. he died in 1955. 

regards Edward Hoare (great grandson)

[jonbem]

Hi and welcome

Medal Roll on Ancestry says 21st battalion

UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk

[mancpal]

He would have been a replacement for those lost or injured in the 21st Battn. 
He was entitled to the BWM & VM which means he didn’t serve in a theatre of war prior to 1/1/16 though my feeling is 1917. 
If you register for free with the National Archives you will be able to download the war diary (free) which starts before his time (Dec ‘15) so the key will be determining when his replacement draft of men joined the Battalion, from that date onwards the diary will give you a flavour of his day to day movements though details vary from one battalion to the next dependant on the officer who compiled it and how literary he was.
If he arrived in France early ‘17 then he would have been present at the battle of Bullecourt, largely an Australian affair but I know the 21st and 22nd Manchesters were there. My maternal grandfather was captured there in early May ( in snow as it happened). 
I predict other members will be along with more assistance soon. 
There is also a Manchester Regiment Forum which may be worth joining. 
It is possible his initial training in the UK could have been with a different Regiment and his allocation to the Manchesters was based on who needed men the most at that point. 
I hope this has given you something to help begin your research.

Simon

Edited 22 October , 2023 by mancpal

[mancpal]

Edward,

if your forebear didn’t arrive in time for Bullecourt  then he may have been at Polygon Wood or Broodseinde ( both part of 3rd Ypres, also known as Passchendaele) in late 1917. From there the 21st Bttn moved to Italy (Piave) before returning to F&F in 1918.

Simon

[George Rayner]

15 hours ago, edward hoare said:

and we are told that he was wounded.

It seems he is mentioned as being wounded in 1917

UK, WWI, Daily Reports: Missing, Dead, Wounded and POWs, 1914-1918 at the National Archives. It is likely that he will be mentioned in newspapers as part of a list of wounded as well

Full Name Downes, E T

Incident Details War Office Daily List No. 5414

Incident Date 12 Nov 1917

More Information Entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being met by being named in this list.

Rank Name Private

Service Number 52878

Casualty Listed as Wounded

Next of Kin Address Crewe

Service British Army

Primary Unit Manchester Regiment

 

George

In fact  he appears again on 15th November 1918

George

[George Rayner]

In Fold3 there is a Pension Card for Edward Thomas Downes of the Manchesters with service number 52878. Presuming this is him?

He seems to have other service numbers as well

George

[AndrewSid]

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Incident Date 12 Nov 1917

George,  I’m presuming incident date is date of publication?  If so the actual date of wounding is likely 4 to 6 weeks prior.  

You can search yourself here Edward:

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

George,  I’m presuming incident date is date of publication?  If so the actual date of wounding is likely 4 to 6 weeks prior.  

You can search yourself here Edward:

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

Yes that's the published date.

Looking at a few others on same Daily Casualty List they seem to be early Oct 1917 actual woundings, although from a variety of battalions.

However in particular on the same list,  Jenkins 52907 of the 21st Battalion was admitted with GSW to 11CCS on 5/10/16 so that probably gives a good idea of when to look at War Diary. 

Ditto 43534 Armstrong, 52816 Hulse, 51495 Walsh, all of same 21st Bn. All these men helpfully also appear on the 11CCS hospital admissions (I've accessed via Findmypast) There are probably others but I think that's a good enough sample.

 

Charlie 

 

PS all that stuff about 'entitled to wear wound badge' suggests report comes from ForcesWarRecords (now Fold3) rather than National Archives?

Edited 23 October , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

War diary of 21st Bn on Ancestry has this:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43112_1668_0-00404?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=b235c0604a7d82584292907fb1274c83&pId=478446 

At DNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053318

 

[charlie962]

Narrative of Operations 4-7/10/1917 is here on Ancestry.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43112_1668_0-00425?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=b235c0604a7d82584292907fb1274c83&pId=478446

[charlie962]

I have the impression that near numbers to Downes 52878 were actually issued to the men in France at the Infantry Base Depot in August 1917, shortly after they had landed. Prior to that these men were in England with a variety of regiments.

An example is 52875 Dearden. He landed Folkestone 11/8/17, joined 30 IBD at Etaples the next day and was then transferred to the Manchesters (albeit 20th Bn) on 25/8/17 whereupon he was issued that new number 52875. In England he had been with other units with other service numbers.

Worth looking at more examples. 

 

Here is what the 21st Bn War Diary shows for reinforcements in August 1917:

Edited 23 October , 2023 by charlie962

[edward hoare]

thank you all so much for all this help. I really appreciate it.

I am as of now following all the links you have kindly provided for me. 

thanks again 

Ed 

[charlie962]

Do please come back with questions or results of your investigations.

Charlie