Lt. Archibald Edward Bishopp MC of the RFA - prev 349 & 905145 RFA - Commissioned April 1917

[Ivor Anderson]

Lt. Archibald Edward Bishopp MC of the RFA - prev 349 & 905145 RFA - Commissioned April 1917

Commissioned from the ranks 30 April 1917: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30051/supplement/4326

MC citation 16 Sept 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30901/supplement/10922

Lt. Dec 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31090/supplement/15247

Resigned his commission 7 Aug 1920: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32010/supplement/8258

I cannot find him in the quarterly Army Lists 1917-1919? Were territorial officers included?

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88697018

RAOC 2 July 1940: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34886/supplement/4009

Edited 21 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Matlock1418]

51 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Lt. Archibald Edward Bishopp MC of the RFA - prev 349 & 905145 RFA - Commissioned April 1917

Don't forget from the MIC he also seems to have been Battery Sergeant Major. 732084, RFA

M

[Ivor Anderson]

20 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Don't forget from the MIC he also seems to have been Battery Sergeant Major. 732084, RFA

   Thanks M.  I am puzzled by the fact that none of the men on his commissioning list seem to appear in the 1918 quarterly army lists re 30 April 1917:

[Guest]

They are listed in the monthly Army Lists is seems [ checking January 1918, that commissioning group appears].. not in May 1917 List, where the last commissioning date for RFATF listed is 16th April 1917..

[David Porter]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Don't forget from the MIC he also seems to have been Battery Sergeant Major. 732084, RFA

That is his post war TF/TA number having resigned his commission then re-enlisted again on September 6, 1920.
It appears current when he, as a BSM, is awarded the Territorial Efficiency Medal in November 1924.
However, his listing in Royal Artillery Attestations on Findmypast suggests he was discharged on April 3, 1921 to re-enlist in the RASC.

 

Edited 21 October , 2023 by David Porter

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks battiscombe & David. I'll have to check that Jan 1918 monthly list. They are an interesting group. William Walker seemed to get an MC in late 1918 too.

EDIT: Can't see them in Jan 1918? https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123136761

Edited 21 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[clk]

Hi Ivor,

Images sourced from the National Archives

Regards
Chris

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Chris. A first day of the German Spring Offensive award. The citation makes sense! A brave man.

Edited 21 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Guest]

Looking further, the Monthly Army Lists in 1918 do have them... in column/page 759, still as 2Lts.  As you mention, by summer 1918 there are a number of MCs listed in that commissioning group: including Bagnall, Miller, Revill &  Carr.. in the July 1918 list

[Ivor Anderson]

4 hours ago, battiscombe said:

Monthly Army Lists in 1918 do have them... in column/page 759, still as 2Lts

Thank you. They are there on (page 648 of the online nls version) Jan 1918 monthly army list: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123138081

I find the online army lists quite hard to navigate. I see they are under territorial force, listed after the special reserve:

JULY 1918 (p 478 nls online version): https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103512134

MARCH 1919: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106136876

Edited 22 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[Ivor Anderson]

More MCs among them by September 1919: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123779479

[charlie962]

Findmypast newspapers add this:

Hastings_and_St_Leonards_Obser_02_November_1918

[charlie962]

AMOT have this extract in the Uniacke papers held by the RA Museum. This draft shows Bishop named but deleted from final version.

https://www.theogilbymuster.com/record/3439912

Some of this appears in 82Bde Diary, here at NA 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352959

And here at Ancestry

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43849_2024_3-00485?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=e921b24a6b448c7b0eb9c89a1fb9c124&pId=656967

[Ivor Anderson]

Great info. Thanks Charlie. Cool heads standing their ground in very trying circumstances.

[charlie962]

Here's Lightbody's MIC. He also won an MC at some stage (maybe same action?)

[charlie962]

AMOT have various copies of the report above, including this published in the RA Journal vol XLVII

Edited 22 October , 2023 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Great info. Thanks Charlie. Cool heads standing their ground in very trying circumstances.

I agree, artillery standing their ground and engaging the enemy at close range without infantry support is tantamount to suicide.  Brave men indeed.  Such actions had been relatively common during the BEF retreat to Mons, but by 1918 had become very rare indeed.  I wonder if any of the junior officers concerned had previously been the young gunners who had experienced the similar actions in that early part of the war.  How extraordinary if they had been!

 

Edited 22 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Good to find the Uniacke text ... he supplied a number of other moving accounts of the often desperate  fightng on March 21st, incorporated in the RA War Commemoration Book.. and i see the account there of 'The End of a Battery" also relates the same story of the 82nd Brigade, which is recounted  in 'Pushed and the return Push' by 'Quex' ( = Capt G H F Nichols, adjutant to Lt Col Thorpe c/o of the 82nd Bde) .. as said, once Major Dennes was killed and A Battery was overrun  (only one Sgt got back), B Battery turned their guns on the A Bty position ....

Edited 22 October , 2023 by battiscombe

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, battiscombe said:

Good to find the Uniacke text ... he supplied a number of other moving accounts of the often desperate  fightng on March 21st, incorporated in the RA War Commemoration Book.. and i see the account there of 'The End of a Battery" also relates the same story of the 82nd Brigade, which is recounted  in 'Pushed and the return Push' by 'Quex' ( = Capt G H F Nichols, adjutant to Lt Col Thorpe c/o of the 82nd Bde) .. as said, once Major Dennes was killed and A Battery was overrun  (only one Sgt got back), B Battery turned their guns on the A Bty position ....

The texts copy a fair bit of the war diary. The detailed write up in that diary was perhaps authored by Nichols ?

 

Here's a link to Gutenberg copy of Quex.

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/22324/pg22324-images.html#III_THE_END_OF_A_BATTERY

Edited 23 October , 2023 by charlie962

[Ivor Anderson]

Why would Bishopp appear in the monthly lists in Sept 1919 (my prev post), but not in the Q3 1919 quarterly list (Lt. 30 Oct 1918)?

here: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88052448

I cannot see him as a 2 Lt. then either (from 30 March 1917): https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88054368

 

Jackson, Haviland & Cooper were commissioned into the RA from 30 April 1917:  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30109/supplement/5435

and show up as Lt. in the Q3 1919 Army lists: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88052448

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[charlie962]

From Quex.

".....The sergeant spoke again.

"Before I came back here, sir, after the enemy had marched off our men, B Battery turned their guns on the Germans in A Battery's position."

"Did they?" said the colonel, his face lighting up. "Splendid!"

"Yes, sir; they fired well, a hundred rounds, I should think. They scattered all the Germans, sir: they ran like mad....." 

 

Difficult decision for B Battery (Bishopp). There must have been wounded left  in A Bty gun pits? 

ps Ivor, sorry I'm not answering your Army List questions!

Edited 23 October , 2023 by charlie962

[Ivor Anderson]

You're OK Charlie. I interrupted your flow.

[charlie962]

@battiscombe do you know if real names were matched to the pseudonyms in Push, Return Push ? Perhaps in a much later edition? 

I wondered if there were further refs to Bishopp.

Charlie 

 

[rflory]

 

Ivor Anderson wrote: Why would Bishopp appear in the monthly lists in Sept 1919 (my prev post), but not in the Q3 1919 quarterly list (Lt. 30 Oct 1918)?

The Quarterly Army Lists only list Regular officers - officers with Territorial, Special Reserve or Temporary Commissions are not included, nor are retired officers - reemployed; these are listed in the Monthly Army Lists.

[Ivor Anderson]

1 hour ago, rflory said:

The Quarterly Army Lists only list Regular officers - officers with Territorial, Special Reserve or Temporary Commissions are not included, nor are retired officers - reemployed; these are listed in the Monthly Army Lists.

    Thank you! I wondered if that was the case, seeing they were territorials. Good to have it confirmed.    Bishopp b.1893, d.1976,

Edited 23 October , 2023 by Ivor Anderson