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Remembered Today:

Murray RNR 8639A


kildaremark

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I've never had to leave the trenches having spent most of my times on artillery units so anything in the sea is beyond me.

I have reason to research the following sailor:

James Murray, 44 Convent Road, Kingstown, Dublin  Reg No. 8639a Royal Navy Reserve.

 

Any idea what the hospital reference means?

Can anyone guide me to what the pension record tells me about him. When did he enlist. There is another pension card giving him a grant of£50 to buy a boat.

 

Thanks

 

Mark

 

Murray, James (8639a).jpg

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Thanks Horatio - that's excellent. 

incidentally I found another 2 pension cards for him one had transcribed RNR as Royal Newfoundland Regiment and another had decided that Kingstown, Co. Dublin was Kingston upon Thames. Never trust the transcribers...

...So he served on the 'Victory', 'Excellent', 'President' and back to the 'Victory' and finished on the 'Ford'.

As he was in the RNR, were these ships transport ships rather than battleships?

Thanks

Mark

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All but FORD are RN shore establishments: HMS VICTORY - Portsmouth naval base and barracks; HMSEXCELLENT - RN Gunnery School, Whale Island, Portsmouth;  HMS PRESIDENT - a shore accounting base. A rather messy record and hard to read but he may have been a gunner in SS INKOSI, a Defensively Armed Merchant Ship (DAMS), in 1915-16. Possibly/probably served in other, un-named DAMS later. DAMS gunners were borne on the books of HMS PRESIDENT.

HMS FORD  (ex-FLEETWOOD), twin-screw minesweeper, later Hunt or Aberdare-class, Adty No. 4363 T.2/ (12.18), T.N7 (11.19). Launched 19.10.18 Dunlop Bremner. 800 tons, 231(oa), 220(pp)x28x7ft. TE 2200ihp, 16kts. Armament: 1-4in, 1-12pdr AA. [naval-history.net]

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2 hours ago, kildaremark said:

Can anyone guide me to what the pension record tells me about him.

What you have posted is an initial claim disability pension index card withs several claim references - notably 13/N/32

Discharged 9.4.19 he was awarded 8/3 pw from 10-4-19 to 7-10-19 [the 30% degree of disability rate for a Seaman and for a fairly common initial six month period whilst they worked things out]

I also note reference to Attentive III [I think perhaps for admin purposes but perhaps one for @horatio2 for a more definitive explanation?]

The St Nichs: Hosp: reference is likely to refer to the man being transferred for hospital treatment [quite common for mental health and tuburculosis sufferers - commonly a mandatory part of getting a pension - out-patients got a pension, whilst in-patients did not]

The DEAD refers to the claim becoming dead [not necessarily the man]

Jumping ahead a bit, and it doesn't look particularly good on the face of it ... we can also see a reference of 11/W/42556 which I interpret as a Widow's claim around 8.29 [this reference appears on another card for Mrs Murray https://www.fold3.com/image/691122440?terms=8639a,murray and unfortunately claim/award files were typically routinely destroyed once their use was passed so we can't see more detail].

There are these related disability pension ledger pages at WFA/Fold3 - same ref: 13/N/32 - Fibroid Phthisis [a form of tuberculosis of the lungs]

Front: https://www.fold3.com/image/644985077?terms=8639a,murray

Reverse: https://www.fold3.com/image/644985078

The reverse of the PLP confirms his 30% and shows his rate then increasing to the 60% rate - but by 1922 has had his pension award cancelled because Man failed to attend twice for medical examination

2 hours ago, kildaremark said:

There is another pension card giving him a grant of£50 to buy a boat.

This was a grant made under the arrangements of Military Service (Civil Liabilities) in 1921 [the maximum grant available was £104 - but what I have observed, from looking at a lot of these MS(CS) cards, it was rarely awarded in full]

https://www.fold3.com/image/703007561?terms=murray,8639

https://www.fold3.com/image/703007560?terms=murray,8639

M

Edited by Matlock1418
typo
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Thanks for that - the widow's pension is a s a result of him dying in Portlaoise Prison in 1929 from TB.  He had enlisted in the Free State army and served in military intelligence. He was convicted of murdering a military policeman in 1925 who was a giving information to the IRA. Murray called him in for questioning and put 6 bullets into his head. 

 

Mark

 

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9 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

the widow's pension is a s a result of him dying in Portlaoise Prison in 1929 from TB.  He had enlisted in the Free State army and served in military intelligence. He was convicted of murdering a military policeman in 1925 who was a giving information to the IRA. Murray called him in for questioning and put 6 bullets into his head. 

Thanks for the update - allowing me to check my workings, so to speak!  Sad all round.

The later story might explain why his widow claimed from Finsbury Park, London N7

M

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17 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

reference to Attentive III [I think perhaps for admin purposes

HMS ATTENTIVE III was the RN base at Dover. I can seee no obvious link to his RNR service but it is posssible that HMS FORD was based there for post-WW1 minesweeping.

Edit;   I now see a note that drafts him (apparently) to "ATTENTIVE 3 17.12.18" - after only one day in HMS FORD. He was invalided from ATTENTIVE III on 9.4.1919. As noted, HMS FORD may have been based at Dover, as tender to ATTENTIVEIII. However, this is further complicated by reference to his discharge from HMS PEMBROKE (Chatham barracks) in March 1919. Frankly, this record is a real mess.

Edited by horatio2
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Thanks for the input. His pension card states three and a half years at sea which seems odd considering most of his service was on shore. He was only 16 when he enlisted in 1915 instead of the declared 18. The murder he was convicted of in 1925 was at least his fifth murder (that I can find so far) - two 'spies' in 1921 and three IRA men in 1923 all executed.

 

Mark

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35 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

His pension card states three and a half years at sea which seems odd considering most of his service was on shore.

Not odd. His sea drafts far exceeded his shore drafts.

Having qualified as a DAMS gunner at HMS EXCELLENT, his following draft was to HMS PRESIDENT III on 8 Dec 1915. He remained on the books of PRESIDENT (for service in DAMS which are not all individually noted in his record) until 20 Nov 1918 (hearly three years). Add on his time (about three months) in hMS FORD at Dover (Dec 1918 to Mar 1919) and we are not far short of the pension card 3 1/2 years. The front of his RNR Record Card notes that his discharge invalided was: "Attributable to nearly 3 years at sea under war conditions." This matches his sea service in PRESIDENT III (DAMS). Disregarding any shore time betweeen DAMS drafts, his shore drafts to VICTORY and EXCELLENT only total about three months of his war years.

I am unable to discern the precise reason for his invaliding but, given his later record as a serial murderer, there may have been mental reasons.

Edited by horatio2
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1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

I am unable to discern the precise reason for his invaliding but, given his later record as a serial murderer, there may have been mental reasons.

St Nicholas' Hospital, Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne, was a war hospital and I think had mental health facilities - certainly later.

I don't know if there were other St Nichs. e.g. for Phthisis/tuberculosis ???

Edited by Matlock1418
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23 hours ago, horatio2 said:

I am unable to discern the precise reason for his invaliding

On closer examination of the "Remarks" I now think I can see an entry for mid-March 1919 with the words "Fibroid Phthysis" connected to invaliding from Chatham. So it looks like his death-cause TB was attributed to his RNR service.

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6 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

On closer examination of the "Remarks" I now think I can see an entry for mid-March 1919 with the words "Fibroid Phthysis" connected to invaliding from Chatham.

That's a handy observation which ties in nicely with his PLP [potentially also with St Nichs Hosp on his PIC, though that hospital & any possible treatment, remains somewhat elusive at the moment]

M

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