‘ORR’ officer brothers, Manchesters

[garfyboy]

Hi all

 

i have just acquired these two images, the officer standing is 2Lt Arthur James B Orr, Kia 23/4/1918 with the 24th manchesters (named to rear)

 

the other is named F. W. Orr, he is also with the Manchester’s and wears a MC ribbon, after some research this looks to be Frank McCall Orr (looks like they wrote a W instead of a M) this is Arthur’s brother. Now I can find Franks MIC but nothing else, went to France  6/1/17 but I can find nothing on his MC? 
 

I would love any advice please, I  hopeless with the London gazette!

both sons of John and Elizabeth of Prestwich, Manchester.

 

 

[garfyboy]

It is worth noting that on ancestry Frank is also referred to as frank Muccal / mascall but McCall is correct, also in later life he is referred to as ‘Francis’

[DavidOwen]

A snippet from FMP

[garfyboy]

Thanks David

Thats more than i found (ancestry) and a good start to building a profile on him

 

Andy

[Tawhiri]

According to the 1901 England and Wales census he was born in Scotland in 1893/94. That then leads to this birth registration on ScotlandsPeople:

ORR    FRANK MACCALL    BOYD    M    1893    644 / 9 / 1883    Kelvin

1901 England and Wales census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9JJ-G7Z

1911 England and Wales census - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW16-Z6Y

Post-war in 1920 he seems to have travelled to Canada for a period of time, although his death was apparently registered in Middlesex, England in 1963.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HG6-S1D

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68J4-HSQ2

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVCN-TPLQ

Spelling his middle forename as MacCall then produces the relevant hit in the Gazette for his commissioning as a 2nd Lieutenant on probation with the Manchester Regiment on 22 November 1916, alongside his brother Arthur James Orr.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29855/page/12067

Edited to add that he appears as late as 31 October 1921 in the Gazette, but you'll notice that while those officers with a gallantry award have it noted alongside their names, he does not have MC alongside his name which suggests that if the photo is showing him wearing the ribbon of the MC it wasn't awarded for his WW1 service.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32503/supplement/8620

Edited 27 September by Tawhiri

[garfyboy]

Crikey Tawhiri that is some excellent research, for some reason even after years of researching I struggle with the gazette .

Thank you very much 

With no mention of the MC in 1921, could it be possible it was awarded after that date? The image certainly looks Great War period or not long after!

Or…….. has the family made a mistake and maybe this is another brother, here is another image of Frank

andy

[Allan1892]

Are they the same man?

[garfyboy]

Hard to tell but I personally think so, small mouth, side burns…. Or lack of, the same length, same size ears, long nostrils, thoughts?

[Tawhiri]

Older brother John Boyd Orr, who was commissioned as a temporary Lieutenant with the RAMC on 24 October 1914 certainly earned an MC in 1916, along with a DSO in 1918, so I'd be inclined to think that he is the individual in the photo with the MC ribbon.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28975/supplement/9364

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29724/supplement/8464

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30466/supplement/565

He seems to have had a very long and distinguished career, culminating in a knighthood in 1935 and being made a baron in 1949.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34135/page/1269

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/38558/page/1264

Edited 26 September by Tawhiri

[garfyboy]

That would make sense, I wonder if John  would have been with the manchesters at some point earlier? OTC perhaps like his brothers, as he is wearing a Manchester Reg collar badge

 

great research Tawhiri, fantastic

[Tawhiri]

1 minute ago, garfyboy said:

That would make sense, I wonder if John  would have been with the manchesters at some point earlier? OTC perhaps like his brothers, as he is wearing a Manchester Reg collar badge

Actually, I might have to walk that one back, because although there is an older brother John Boyd Orr, I'm not now convinced he's the RAMC John Boyd Orr. Brother John Boyd Orr's occupation in the 1911 England and Wales census is calico printer's salesman, which is a little hard to reconcile with being a qualified MD three years later in 1914.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW16-Z6P

Back to square one I think.

[garfyboy]

7 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Actually, I might have to walk that one back, because although there is an older brother John Boyd Orr, I'm not now convinced he's the RAMC John Boyd Orr. Brother John Boyd Orr's occupation in the 1911 England and Wales census is calico printer's salesman, which is a little hard to reconcile with being a qualified MD three years later in 1914.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW16-Z6P

Back to square one I think.

The boys father owned a calico printing business so that does tie in nicely, obviously a wealthy family as they had a couple of servants and surely there’s not another ‘John Boyd Orr’

[DavidOwen]

This is the John Boyd Orr MD (Images courtesy FMP)

MC details

This is a different man

 

There are MICs for a couple more John B Orr.

 

 

[corisande]

24 minutes ago, garfyboy said:

surely there’s not another ‘John Boyd Orr’

He has a full write up in Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_Orr

[DavidOwen]

This newspaper article indicates the John Boyd Orr MD is not your man The Hamilton Advertiser 11 August 1917

 Courtesy FMP

 

[garfyboy]

13 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

This newspaper article indicates the John Boyd Orr MD is not your man The Hamilton Advertiser 11 August 1917

 Courtesy FMP

 

Yes that certainly discounts that fella, thanks David

There are other photos in this family collection that I have not seen yet, hopefully these may help, I’m not sure if/when I will get to see them

[8055Bell]

There's an interesting thread on Arthur Orr on the Manchesters Forum

Tim

[Tawhiri]

So there are at least three other brothers who would have been of age to serve in WW1, the aforementioned John Boyd Orr (born in 1882), Archibald John Boyd Orr (born in 1883), and William Boyd Orr (born in 1888). John and Archibald are both present with the family in the 1901 England and Wales census with William being elsewhere, in the 1911 census John and William are with the family, and Archibald is elsewhere.

We now know there were at least two other John Boyd Orr's serving during WW1. The first was killed in action in August 1914 while serving with the Norfolk Regiment, and this appears to be the John Boyd Orr who first makes an appearance in the Gazette on being commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant with the 3rd Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment on 21 February 1891. The second is our distinguished Scottish doctor who served with the RAMC and earned both an MC and a DSO. Otherwise, there is no obvious evidence to suggest that brother John Boyd Orr ever served during WW1.

Similarly, there is no evidence that Archibald John Boyd Orr ever served during WW1 either. In fact, he appears to have had at least two children with his wife during WW1, a son who was christened on 14 April 1915 and a daughter who was christened on 12 July 1918. Not conclusive evidence that he never served, but certainly suggestive that he was in England for a large part of the war.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Z4F5-2P6Z

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:ZHMP-RT3Z 

Brother William Boyd Orr does however seem to have served during WW1, as a William Boyd Orr was commissioned as a temporary 2nd Lieutenant with the 4th City Battalion of the Manchester Regiment on 26 September 1914.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28961/page/8883

Furthermore, temporary Captain William Boyd Orr of the Manchester Regiment did earn an MC that was gazetted on 9 January 1918.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30466/supplement/633

I cannot find an officer's personal file for him at the National Archives, which suggests he served for at least a period of time after WW1. There is also a mention in the Gazette of 12 April 1942 that a Captain William Boyd-Orr, MC was to be Lieutenant from 1 February 1941.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35530/supplement/1743

Perhaps @FROGSMILE could cast his eye over the second photo at the top of the thread and offer a comment on the time period that the uniform dates to and whether the collar badges he is wearing are those of the Manchester Regiment.

I now wait with bated breath for several more William Boyd Orr's with an MC to crawl out of the woodwork after my earlier John Boyd Orr efforts.

Edited 27 September by Tawhiri

[DavidOwen]

Another Manchester University connection (courtesy FMP)

William's MC mentions

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

So there are at least three other brothers who would have been of age to serve in WW1, the aforementioned John Boyd Orr (born in 1882), Archibald John Boyd Orr (born in 1883), and William Boyd Orr (born in 1888). John and Archibald are both present with the family in the 1901 England and Wales census with William being elsewhere, in the 1911 census John and William are with the family, and Archibald is elsewhere.

We now know there were at least two other John Boyd Orr's serving during WW1. The first was killed in action in August 1914 while serving with the Norfolk Regiment, and this appears to be the John Boyd Orr who first makes an appearance in the Gazette on being commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant with the 3rd Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment on 21 February 1891. The second is our distinguished Scottish doctor who served with the RAMC and earned both an MC and a DSO. Otherwise, there is no obvious evidence to suggest that brother John Boyd Orr ever served during WW1.

Similarly, there is no evidence that Archibald John Boyd Orr ever served during WW1 either. In fact, he appears to have had at least two children with his wife during WW1, a son who was christened on 14 April 1915 and a daughter who was christened on 12 July 1918. Not conclusive evidence that he never served, but certainly suggestive that he was in England for a large part of the war.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Z4F5-2P6Z

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:ZHMP-RT3Z 

Brother William Boyd Orr does however seem to have served during WW1, as a William Boyd Orr was commissioned as a temporary 2nd Lieutenant with the 4th City Battalion of the Manchester Regiment on 26 September 1914.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28961/page/8883

Furthermore, temporary Captain William Boyd Orr of the Manchester Regiment did earn an MC that was gazetted on 9 January 1918.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30466/supplement/633

I cannot find an officer's personal file for him at the National Archives, which suggests he served for at least a period of time after WW1. There is also a mention in the Gazette of 12 April 1942 that a Captain William Boyd-Orr, MC was to be Lieutenant from 1 February 1941.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35530/supplement/1743

Perhaps @FROGSMILE could cast his eye over the second photo at the top of the thread and offer a comment on the time period that the uniform dates to and whether the collar badges he is wearing are those of the Manchester Regiment.

I now wait with bated breath for several more William Boyd Orr's with an MC to crawl out of the woodwork after my earlier John Boyd Orr efforts.

Yes it does appear to be the Manchester Regiment’s bronze officers collar badge as prescribed for service dress.

Edited 27 September by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

Original gazetting of William Boyd Orr's MC on 26 September 1917, the later entry from January 1918 is the actual citation for his award.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30308/supplement/9968

[garfyboy]

Apologies for the late reply, busy with work

Well it looks like we have our man with the MC then (wrong details on the back of the card) I do have more cards coming from this family album that I can’t wait to see, I have this digital copy of one of them , written on the rear ‘Orr brothers, so it does show that at least 3 of them did serve, so Arthur, Frank and William MC, hard to make out much from this image but another small piece to the jigsaw and more images to come.

Amazing research from Tawhiri, thank you so much, and many thanks to everybody else’s input, it’s so nice that between us we are bringing back a little bit of history

 

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, garfyboy said:

Apologies for the late reply, busy with work

Well it looks like we have our man with the MC then (wrong details on the back of the card) I do have more cards coming from this family album that I can’t wait to see, I have this digital copy of one of them , written on the rear ‘Orr brothers, so it does show that at least 3 of them did serve, so Arthur, Frank and William MC, hard to make out much from this image but another small piece to the jigsaw and more images to come.

Amazing research from Tawhiri, thank you so much, and many thanks to everybody else’s input, it’s so nice that between us we are bringing back a little bit of history

 

The MC recipient is in the centre and it’s interesting that he’s chosen to wear both braces on his Sam Browne belt.  When out of the line that would be a distinct individual idiosyncrasy and not common practice, with the exceptions of the Oxf & Bucks LI and the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), whose officers did so as a regimental dress distinction.

Edited 27 September by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

17 hours ago, garfyboy said:

I have this digital copy of one of them , written on the rear ‘Orr brothers, so it does show that at least 3 of them did serve

Given that we know that all of three of William, Frank, and Arthur were commissioned as officers between August 1914 and November 1916, and that the individual on the left is apparently wearing an enlisted man's uniform while William is wearing his MC ribbon which suggests the photo was taken late in the war, I suspect that younger brother Kenric Ewart Rhodes Orr also served. He may have been too young to have entered a theatre of war, so would not have been entitled to any medals, but worth considering as you continue your search.

Edited 28 September by Tawhiri

[Pat Atkins]

To me, the man on the left looks like the earlier photo of FM Orr in his OTC days.