1694 Pvt Percy Joseph Cartwright, 1/5 KOYLI - rediscovered

[crimta]

I've been into researching my genealogy and heritage and I found one of my 2nd great-grandfather's brothers, Percy Joseph, who served briefly in Bois-Grenier in 1915 before he was killed in action. My family know little about him, only that he lied about his age to sign up (he was 17 by August 1914) and that there was a large photo of him that exists somewhere of him either next to or on a horse. He served with the 1/5 battalion of the KOYLI, and he was from Doncaster. He died on the 24th of May 1915. How would I go about finding out more about him and should I post something in the photo forum to try my luck at finding something there? Thanks!

[Gunner 87]

1 hour ago, crimta said:

I've been into researching my genealogy and heritage and I found one of my 2nd great-grandfather's brothers, Percy Joseph, who served briefly in Bois-Grenier in 1915 before he was killed in action. My family know little about him, only that he lied about his age to sign up (he was 17 by August 1914) and that there was a large photo of him that exists somewhere of him either next to or on a horse. He served with the 1/5 battalion of the KOYLI, and he was from Doncaster. He died on the 24th of May 1915. How would I go about finding out more about him and should I post something in the photo forum to try my luck at finding something there? Thanks!

Hi crimta.

Welcome to the forum. 

Ancestry hold Percy's Medal Index Card, 1914-1915 Star Medal Roll, Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll, Army Registers of Soldier' Effects and a number of Pension Cards. It doesn't appear Percy's service papers have survived. Ancestry offer a free trial period that maybe of use to you though this won't give you access to the Pension Cards. 

Regarding a photograph I have searched the Find My Past Newspapers which I believe shares the same database as the British Newspaper Archives but not had a result. Ancestry have a Newspaper database but this is an extra subscription. You may want to check your local newspaper archives. 

The War Diary for the 1/5 King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry has an entry for the 24th May 1915 which maybe of interest and which I attach. The War Diary for the battalion between dates 1st April 1915 to 31st January 1918 can be found here, free to download once registered https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354672

Hope that is of some use.

Gunner 87

[kenf48]

10 hours ago, crimta said:

I've been into researching my genealogy and heritage and I found one of my 2nd great-grandfather's brothers, Percy Joseph, who served briefly in Bois-Grenier in 1915 before he was killed in action. My family know little about him, only that he lied about his age to sign up (he was 17 by August 1914) and that there was a large photo of him that exists somewhere of him either next to or on a horse. He served with the 1/5 battalion of the KOYLI, and he was from Doncaster. He died on the 24th of May 1915. How would I go about finding out more about him and should I post something in the photo forum to try my luck at finding something there? Thanks!

Welcome

His Regimental number indicates he enlisted in the Territorial Force on or around the 11th March 1912, in all probability with Fred Spowage (1693) whose records, in part, survive and who gave his age on enlistment as eighteen.  Young men could legitimately join the Territorial Force at age seventeen as the Force was formed for Home Service.  They were not supposed to go on active service overseas until age nineteen.  Having made a false declaration as to age in 1912 when war was declared his 'army age' was nineteen.  Men joined the TF for four years.  They attended summer camps, in 1912 at Bridlington and 1913 Aberystwyth which for those in the industrial cities was a welcome break.

Recommended reading 'Boy Soldiers' Richard van Emden readily available and recently revised.  There was so much concern about the TF sending under age soldiers to the Front in January 1915 a War Office instruction was issued stating they should be repatriated to the UK and posted to the Reserve, or second and third line TF Battalions.

We always recommend new members look at the Long Long Trail link top left

Here is a link to the pages on the Territorial Force

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

The headquarters of the 5th Battalion KOYLI were at French Gate Doncaster and in 1912, two Companies 'B' and 'C' were raised there. Shortly after the war was declared the old eight Company system became a four Company system in line with the regular battalions.  In all probability he was therefore in B Company as mentioned in the war diary extract posted above.

 

[crimta]

On 07/09/2023 at 10:50, kenf48 said:

Welcome

His Regimental number indicates he enlisted in the Territorial Force on or around the 11th March 1912, in all probability with Fred Spowage (1693) whose records, in part, survive and who gave his age on enlistment as eighteen.  Young men could legitimately join the Territorial Force at age seventeen as the Force was formed for Home Service.  They were not supposed to go on active service overseas until age nineteen.  Having made a false declaration as to age in 1912 when war was declared his 'army age' was nineteen.  Men joined the TF for four years.  They attended summer camps, in 1912 at Bridlington and 1913 Aberystwyth which for those in the industrial cities was a welcome break.

Recommended reading 'Boy Soldiers' Richard van Emden readily available and recently revised.  There was so much concern about the TF sending under age soldiers to the Front in January 1915 a War Office instruction was issued stating they should be repatriated to the UK and posted to the Reserve, or second and third line TF Battalions.

We always recommend new members look at the Long Long Trail link top left

Here is a link to the pages on the Territorial Force

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/the-territorial-force/

The headquarters of the 5th Battalion KOYLI were at French Gate Doncaster and in 1912, two Companies 'B' and 'C' were raised there. Shortly after the war was declared the old eight Company system became a four Company system in line with the regular battalions.  In all probability he was therefore in B Company as mentioned in the war diary extract posted above.

 

Thank you for this, the family story goes that he did lie about his age and enlist so if he enlisted in 1912 (when he would've been 15-16 years old) does add up, by the time he died he was 18 though. They could've sent him back, bless him. I'll have a look at the links. 
 

On 07/09/2023 at 02:28, Gunner 87 said:

Hi crimta.

Welcome to the forum. 

Ancestry hold Percy's Medal Index Card, 1914-1915 Star Medal Roll, Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll, Army Registers of Soldier' Effects and a number of Pension Cards. It doesn't appear Percy's service papers have survived. Ancestry offer a free trial period that maybe of use to you though this won't give you access to the Pension Cards. 

Regarding a photograph I have searched the Find My Past Newspapers which I believe shares the same database as the British Newspaper Archives but not had a result. Ancestry have a Newspaper database but this is an extra subscription. You may want to check your local newspaper archives. 

The War Diary for the 1/5 King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry has an entry for the 24th May 1915 which maybe of interest and which I attach. The War Diary for the battalion between dates 1st April 1915 to 31st January 1918 can be found here, free to download once registered https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354672

Hope that is of some use.

Gunner 87

Thank you for the diary entries, I already had them but thank you nonetheless - I'll get to booking another trip to the archives haha, it looks like the most likely event was that he was shot by a shell. 

[Jim Mitchell]

Picture taken from the Doncaster Gazette 4th July 1915 page 3. Sorry the quality isn`t very good. you will get a better result from the original newspaper in the Doncaster archive. Regards.

[Matlock1418]

On 07/09/2023 at 02:28, Gunner 87 said:

a number of Pension Cards

Crimta, Welcome to GWF

Pension cards at WFA/Fold3 x 2.

These don't add much [as no pension quantum or start date = noting that his father claimed - same name and Doncaster address as CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/292433/percy-joseph-cartwright ]

It is a bit unusual for a father to initially claim - rather suggests mother/wife had previously died.

This rather looks the case

Surname	First name(s)	Age	District	Vol	Page
Deaths Sep 1909   (>99%)
CARTWRIGHT	Clara Sarah	46	Doncaster	9c	415

M

[crimta]

8 hours ago, Jim Mitchell said:

aster Gazette 4th July 1915 page 3. Sorry the quality isn`t very good. you will get a better result from the o

I appreciate it Jim, thank you so much!! He looks so familiar
Where did you manage to get a Doncaster Gazette page from? The archives too?
 

Thank you Matlock, 
His mother did die in 1909, she's buried somewhere in Hyde Park Cemetery - I'm planning to visit it as PJ might have a memorial there

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, crimta said:

His mother did die in 1909, she's buried somewhere in Hyde Park Cemetery - I'm planning to visit it as PJ might have a memorial there

Find a Grave have Clara Sarah CARTWRIGHT buried in plot LX276

 https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2372852/memorial-search?firstname=clara&middlename=&lastname=cartwright&cemeteryName=Hyde+Park+Cemetery&birthyear=&birthyearfilter=&deathyear=1909&deathyearfilter=&memorialid=&mcid=&linkedToName=&datefilter=&orderby=r&plot=

No photo of her grave or mention of PJC

M

Edited 25 September by Matlock1418

[Jim Mitchell]

21 hours ago, crimta said:

I appreciate it Jim, thank you so much!! He looks so familiar
Where did you manage to get a Doncaster Gazette page from? The archives too?
 

Thank you Matlock, 
His mother did die in 1909, she's buried somewhere in Hyde Park Cemetery - I'm planning to visit it as PJ might have a memorial there

I got the image from the local studies library which has all the newspapers on michrofiche, hence the poor quality. As I said a better copy can be obtained from the original newspaper at the archive. regards. Jim

[crimta]

 

On 25/09/2023 at 20:33, Matlock1418 said:

Find a Grave have Clara Sarah CARTWRIGHT buried in plot LX276

 https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2372852/memorial-search?firstname=clara&middlename=&lastname=cartwright&cemeteryName=Hyde+Park+Cemetery&birthyear=&birthyearfilter=&deathyear=1909&deathyearfilter=&memorialid=&mcid=&linkedToName=&datefilter=&orderby=r&plot=

No photo of her grave or mention of PJC

M

I went to view her unmarked grave today, someone had gone by and put a little flower down previously but that was gone when I went. No memorial for PJ either, that's in France

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, crimta said:

I went to view her unmarked grave today,

Nice you could make it.

M