yvonnel7 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August Hi everyone, I hope you're doing well. I have a question about the attachment. Can someone please tell me what "Army Form B" means? I'm having trouble identifying who the person is and whether they're a family member or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) If this is the challenge = The handwritten content: Section B Army Res 1420492 Gunner RYAN George Royal Artillery Hamilton 9th August 14 1914 – 15 Star British War Medal Victory Medal Termination of 1st Period of engagement Para 484 (VII) KRs Five Forty seven Six Three hundred + eighteen 5th August 1926 1890 5 7 ¾ Sallow Nil Brown Dk Brown Woolwich 8.8.26 M Edit: He was discharged having served post-war - hence his seven digit number Edited 25 August by Matlock1418 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) Sorry but don’t really understand your question. Do you mean Army Form B 2079 as written at the top right hand corner of the posted document? It’s the number of the form you’ve posted - Certificate of Discharge (in this case from Section B Army Reserve. Army had numerous forms that were individually numbered. Some with B prefix. The soldier concerned enlisted in August 1914 on Regular Army terms of service - likely 7 years with the colours and 5 on the Reserve (varied due to post war demobilisation). At the end of his colour service he would have gone in to Section B Army Reserve for the years prior to his discharge. His full army service record papers ought to be available on application to UK MOD. Steve Edited 25 August by tullybrone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmelling1979 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August Hello Army Form B 2079 is the form of discharge certificate which is given to soldiers whatever the ground of their discharge, and, strictly speaking, it is not of itself a final discharge in the sense that it relieves the man from further liability to be recalled. In order, however, to remove misapprehension, I should like to make it clear that certain discharged men who have been given Army Form B 2079 are in certain circumstances freed from liability to be recalled, and in those circumstances their discharge certificate becomes in effect a valid final discharge Thank, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonnel7 Posted 25 August Author Share Posted 25 August Hi everyone as usual you all have been a great help and thank you for all the replies, Is there any way to find more details about George Ryans in the attached file? The George I am searching for was born on December 27, 1891, in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. His mother's name is Catherine Haggerty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) 23 minutes ago, yvonnel7 said: Hi everyone as usual you all have been a great help and thank you for all the replies, Is there any way to find more details about George Ryans in the attached file? The George I am searching for was born on December 27, 1891, in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. His mother's name is Catherine Haggerty. Agreed. We all scratched our heads and had a go at trying to work out what your question was about….. There may be information on various genealogy sites that you can go on. Similarly via MOD as per my post. Drawback is that you’ll have to pay… BTW the surname on the document is Ryan not Ryans…… Edited 25 August by tullybrone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August 1 hour ago, yvonnel7 said: ...Can someone please tell me what "Army Form B" means? I'm having trouble identifying who the person is and whether they're a family member or not... For future reference - in the most literal sense of the question the "B" stands for "Blank". So it's a slightly abbreviated version of "Army Form Blank" (often more heavily abbreviated to A.F.B.). The number part is simply referencing a specific type of military form that requires being filled in (a Discharge Certificate in this case). Not to be confused with how the term was later appropriated for toilet paper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) 15 hours ago, yvonnel7 said: The George I am searching for was born on December 27, 1891, in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland. His mother's name is Catherine Haggerty. A quick look at ScotlandsPeople doesn't produce any George Ryan births at all in Scotland in the time frame 1889 to 1892, and no other male Ryan births with a mother's maiden name of Haggerty either. In the 1901 Scotland census there is only one possibility for a George Ryan of the correct age, and that is the 10-year old George Ryan living in Calton, Lanark, with this family. RYAN JOHN 1901 M 38 644/4 34/ 9 Calton Lanark RYAN MARIA MARGARET 1901 F 36 644/4 34/ 9 Calton Lanark RYAN MARGARET ANNIE 1901 F 17 644/4 34/ 9 Calton Lanark RYAN JAMES AUGUSTIN 1901 M 13 644/4 34/ 9 Calton Lanark RYAN GEORGE 1901 M 10 644/4 34/ 9 Calton Lanark RYAN AMBROSE 1901 M 3 644/4 34/ 9 Calton Lanark Ambose is a fairly unusual name, and there is only one birth registration on all of ScotlandsPeople for an Ambrose Ryan, and that is this one in 1897 that was registered in Camlachie, Lanark and which shows his mother's maiden name was Buckley. There are two further Ryan/Buckley births on all of ScotlandsPeople, a John Thomas in 1885, and an Arthur in 1900, both registered in Calton, Lanark. RYAN AMBROSE BUCKLEY M 1897 644 / 2 / 1936 Camlachie There is no sign of a Ryan/Buckley marriage in the right time frame on ScotlandsPeople, and I would be inclined to have a look at a possible Irish connection for both a marriage and the births of a number of the children in the 1901 census for this family. Focusing on Catherine Haggerty, she did not marry Michael Ryan until 1903 in Anderston, Lanark according to ScotlandsPeople. In this marriage she is also indexed as Catherine McGill, which then suggests this is a second marriage. This leads to the earlier marriage of a Catherine McGill to a John Haggerty that was registered in Anderston, Lanark in 1890. These are all the Haggerty/McGill births that were registered between 1890 and 1903 on ScotlandsPeople, all in Anderston, so presumably children from the marriage of Catherine McGill and John Haggerty. HAGGERTY GEORGE MCGILL M 1891 644 / 10 / 28 Anderston HAGGERTY ISABELLA GRAY MCGILL F 1897 644 / 10 / 582 Anderston HAGGERTY JAMES MCGILL M 1897 644 / 10 / 583 Anderston HAGGERTY CHARLES MCGILL M 1898 644 / 10 / 1003 Anderston HAGGERTY WILLIAM MCGILL M 1899 644 / 10 / 1433 Anderston The OP's George Ryan's birth was therefore registered as George Haggerty in Anderston, Lanark in 1891. And these, I think, are the living Haggerty children, all living together in Hamilton, Lanark in the 1911 Scotland census. Note that the birth of a Henry McGill Haggerty, no mother's maiden name, was also registered in Anderston, Lanark in 1895, while the birth of a John Haggarty, mother's maiden name McGill, was registered in the same district in 1892, so names and ages all check out. HAGGERTY JAMES 1911 M 13 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark HAGGERTY ISABELLA 1911 F 13 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark HAGGERTY HENRY 1911 M 16 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark HAGGERTY JOHN 1911 M 18 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark HAGGERTY GEORGE 1911 M 20 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark Also living at the same address, as evidenced by the same reference number, are Catherine, Michael, and two younger Ryan children born from their marriage. RYAN CATHERINE 1911 F 2 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark RYAN THOMAS 1911 M 7 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark RYAN CATHERINE 1911 F 43 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark RYAN MICHAEL 1911 M 43 647/ 4/ 30 Hamilton Lanark To summarize, there is a George Ryan of the correct age and born circa 1890 living in Glasgow in the right time frame, but he is the son of John Ryan and Margaret Buckley. The OP's George Ryan was born as George Haggerty, and was still using this surname as late as 1911. Having said that, the death of a 63-year old George Haggerty/Ryan was registered in East Kilbride in 1953, so he was apparently known by both names. Edited 26 August by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) My last comment is that's a seven digit service number and the form is dated 1926, so the MoD/National Archives will still have his service record. This should contain details of his civilian addresses and next of kin, which would very quickly confirm whether he is the right George Ryan/Haggerty. Edited 25 August by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) George Ryan 1420492 has an entry in the Royal Artillery Attestations ledgers. Born c1890 (or rather declared age 24 when attesting August 1914) Barony, Glasgow, his next of kin in 1919 seems to be Edited 25 August by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August Note George Ryan 1420492 had his wartime service under 79627, with the Royal Field Artillery Then 191052 with the Royal Garrison Artillery. There is further info if we have the right man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August 7 minutes ago, charlie962 said: 79627, with the Royal Field Artillery Then 191052 with the Royal Garrison Artillery. A 1914-15 Star MIC [France 12.11.15] as C. RYAN, 79627, RFA, 191052, RGA, is annotated as "B" A Res 1.8.19 ["B" Army Reserve] BWM & VM MIC as George RYAN, 79627, RFA, 191052, RGA, M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) By 1921, all of the Heggarty children still living at home, including George, seem to have adopted the surname Ryan. From the 1921 Scotland census: RYAN MICHAEL 1921 M 56 647/ 5/ 29 Hamilton Lanark RYAN CATHERINE 1921 F 55 647/ 5/ 29 Hamilton Lanark RYAN GEORGE 1921 M 28 647/ 5/ 29 Hamilton Lanark RYAN JAMES 1921 M 24 647/ 5/ 29 Hamilton Lanark RYAN THOMAS 1921 M 17 647/ 5/ 29 Hamilton Lanark RYAN KATIE 1921 F 12 647/ 5/ 29 Hamilton Lanark It certainly seems consistent with the 1919 address that charlie962 found. The actual census sheet should tell you the exact address they were living at in 1921. Edited 25 August by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August 2 minutes ago, Tawhiri said: From the 1921 Scotland census: Does the address match that in the RA Attestation ledger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) 12 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Does the address match that in the RA Attestation ledger? You'd need to look at the actual image of the census sheet to confirm the street address, the search results on ScotlandsPeople only return the reference, but according to the valuation rolls on ScotlandsPeople a Michael Ryan was living at 47 Barracks Street, Hamilton in both 1920 and 1925, so I'm going to go with yes, one house down apparently. Edited 25 August by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August (edited) 31 minutes ago, Tawhiri said: You'd need to look at the actual image of the census sheet to confirm the street address, the search results on ScotlandsPeople only return the reference, but according to the valuation rolls on ScotlandsPeople a Michael Ryan was living at 47 Barracks Street, Hamilton in both 1920 and 1925, so I'm going to go with yes, one house down apparently. Good. So Mrs C Ryan looks to probably be Catherine Ryan née(edit-widow of) Haggerty. I did look for a service record in the MoD held files index on Ancestry but nothing. However italways seemed to me that there were a big chunk of RA attestations that should be there but are missing in the index. We await MoD>Kew results ... Edited 25 August by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August Michael Ryan was also living at the same address in 1915, which then bookends 1919 quite nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August 2 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Catherine Ryan née Haggerty Née McGill, the Haggerty comes from her first marriage in 1890 to John Haggerty. HAGGERTY JOHN MCGILL CATHERINE 1890 644 / 10 / 48 Anderston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 25 August Share Posted 25 August Yes, noted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonnel7 Posted 26 August Author Share Posted 26 August 6 hours ago, charlie962 said: George Ryan 1420492 has an entry in the Royal Artillery Attestations ledgers. Born c1890 (or rather declared age 24 when attesting August 1914) Barony, Glasgow, his next of kin in 1919 seems to be 6 hours ago, charlie962 said: Note George Ryan 1420492 had his wartime service under 79627, with the Royal Field Artillery Then 191052 with the Royal Garrison Artillery. There is further info if we have the right man. 6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: A 1914-15 Star MIC [France 12.11.15] as C. RYAN, 79627, RFA, 191052, RGA, is annotated as "B" A Res 1.8.19 ["B" Army Reserve] BWM & VM MIC as George RYAN, 79627, RFA, 191052, RGA, M 5 hours ago, charlie962 said: Good. So Mrs C Ryan looks to probably be Catherine Ryan née(edit-widow of) Haggerty. I did look for a service record in the MoD held files index on Ancestry but nothing. However italways seemed to me that there were a big chunk of RA attestations that should be there but are missing in the index. We await MoD>Kew results ... Hi and thank you for all the replies, A big thank you to Charlie962 and Matlock1418 you have found George Haggerty Ryan and his service numbers, I have been looking for him for years and hit so many brick walls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonnel7 Posted 26 August Author Share Posted 26 August Hi and thank you for all the replies, it has all been so helpful! A big thank you to Charlie962 and Matlock1418 you have found George Haggerty Ryan and his service numbers, 9 minutes ago, yvonnel7 said: I have been looking for him for years and hit so many brick walls... What is the best way to get his service records? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 26 August Share Posted 26 August 5 hours ago, yvonnel7 said: big thank you to Tawhiri who confirmed the family and address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 26 August Share Posted 26 August 7 hours ago, yvonnel7 said: Hi and thank you for all the replies, it has all been so helpful! A big thank you to Charlie962 and Matlock1418 you have found George Haggerty Ryan and his service numbers, What is the best way to get his service records? Given his age and inter war discharge from the Army your best bet is to apply to UK National Archives under Freedom of Information via this link. Be aware it is not a speedy process. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 26 August Share Posted 26 August (edited) 15 hours ago, charlie962 said: George Ryan 1420492 has an entry in the Royal Artillery Attestations ledgers. Born c1890 (or rather declared age 24 when attesting August 1914) Barony, Glasgow, his next of kin in 1919 seems to be Actually his number in the ledger is 1424094 not 92 so the discharge cert is incorrect! Here is another extract from the RA Attestations Ledger showing he was reported wounded in May 1918. Courtesy Findmypast That wounding was a shell wound to his right leg and back and resulted in hospitalisation. There is a Hospital Admission (13 Stationary Hospital) record, again on FindmyPast that shows he was with A Anti-aircraft Battery 22Section Royal Garrison Artillery, 1st Army Corps at the time. He was evacuated to Base. Charlie https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FMH106%2FP2%2F459292 Edited 26 August by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonnel7 Posted 26 August Author Share Posted 26 August Thank you, Charlie. I have applied for George Ryan's military record under ledger number 1424094, but I am unsure if it survived the September 1940 fire at the War Office Record Office in London. Yvonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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