Surgeon Probationer

[Andrew P]

Hopefully someone can fill me in a bit about this rank.

One of the men I'm researching had the rank Surgeon Probationer. I'm assuming that after a certain time period the probationer would then drop off the rank and the person would then became a surgeon. Is this correct? Or was the doctor on the ship always called a 'Surgeon Probationer'?

Regards

Andrew

[DirtyDick]

Hello Andrew

During the War, as the Fleet increased in size there was a serious shortage of naval surgeons available for service at sea as ship/flotilla doctors. (Surgeon is something of a misnomer, for all Navy doctors are referred to as Surgeon-Lieutenant, Surgeon-Captain etc. Surgen Probationers would of course deal with any accidents and battle casualties etc., but was more of a GP.)

Consequently, third- and fourth-year medical students were enrolled into the Navy as Surgeon Probationers, given some further practical training and then despatched around the Fleet. I assume most would have been RNVR, for most returned to complete their studies in 1919.

As to rank: around that of Sub Lt/Lieutenant.

Richard

[kin47]

Hello

Just a bit more on Surgeon Probationers.

All were RNVR as Temporary Surgeon Probationers. The first group was entered on 28 September 1914. The rank was terminated at war's end.

don

[Andrew P]

Thanks Richard & Don, that info certainly helps.

The man I'm researching, Robert Walker, was a 4th year medical student at Edinburgh University and was in the RNVR when he was assigned to HMS Shark in August 1915.

Unfortunately he lost his life at the Battle of Jutland.

Regards

Andrew

[Jonathan Saunders]

... he was assigned to HMS Shark in August 1915.

Unfortunately he lost his life at the Battle of Jutland.

Regards

Andrew

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I presume you know all about Loftus Jones and the famous "Shark's Dash"? I have a distant relative who was below decks on the Shark, was picked up by a trawler and managed to survive until reaching Hull, when he sadly died.

[kin47]

Hello Andrew

I'm sure you have this, but if not...

Robert Walker was commissioned as a Temporary Surgeon Probationer on 23 July 1915 and joined SHARK in August 1915.

don

[Andrew P]

Cheers Don.

Jon

When I was at the AWM last year I scrolled through the jutland books for an account of Shark's demise. It looks like Loftus Jones was a very brave Captain with a good crew.

I've only seen one account so far that mentions Robert Walker and that was given to me by a relation of his. He was seen tending a wounded sailor who had lost his hand when there was another blast and he was not seen again but was thought to have been killed.

What was your relative's role on the Shark Jon?

Cheers

Andrew

[Jonathan Saunders]

What was your relative's role on the Shark Jon?

Cheers

Andrew

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was a time expired Chief Stoker. Would have been about 45 at the time ... name of Francis Newcombe. He was married to my Gt/Gmthr's elder sister. Very strange as I found correspondence between this G/G/Aunt of mine with the Admiralty in the File at the Record Office. When Francis or Frank was called back from the Reserve he gave his sister's address as nok. This was in Derbyshire. He lived in Kent. My G/G/Aunt wrote to The Admiralty about 3/4 weeks after Jutland and said she just been told her husband had been killed. I dont think she even knew what ship he was on. He obviously gave his sister's address to ensure no shock telegrams reached home. They were married with three children and there were memorials in the newspaper on the anniversaries of his death so I am pretty sure there marriage was solid - obituary eventually in the local newspaper etc. What surprises me is that his sister never forwarded the news. Anyway this has little to do with Surgeon-Probationers!!

[Andrew P]

Thanks Jon. Very interesting.

Cheers

Andrew

[penfold]

Does anyone know where the service records are held for Surgeon Probationers at The National Archives (Citable References ADM ?) please.

I am researching those that were at the Battle of Jutland

Edited 30 July , 2021 by penfold

[KizmeRD]

I can’t help you with TNA ref. - but University of Portsmouth have a Jutland casualty database, and you could try filtering ‘Surgeon Probationer’.

http://porttowns.port.ac.uk/battle-jutland-casualty-database-table/

MB

 

 

 

[alf mcm]

Penfold,

   This is is the record here;-  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10853381

  Confusingly, it is entitled 'Temporary Surgeons'.

Regards,

Alf McM

[seaJane]

There was a slight and almost imperceptible difference between Surgeon Probationers and Temporary Surgeons - I think depending on their time of joining, and/or whether or not they were RN or RNVR. But they are all listed, with service details and other pieces of information when those could be found, in Simon Eyre's book Surgeons of the Royal Naval Medical Service in the First World War.

I gave a presentation about the RN Medical Service at Jutland a while ago: these (attached) are the references, in case you should happen to find them useful. At least one surgeon probationer (Douglas G P Bell) is mentioned in The fighting at Jutland.

sJ

The Royal Naval Medical Service at Jutland - References.pdf

[KizmeRD]

 I think you’ll find that all Surgeon Probationers were officially speaking ‘Temporary Surgeon Probationers RNVR’.

‘Temporary’ because they were ‘hostilities only’ (an expedient wartime measure that had no place in the peacetime navy).

’Surgeon’ because that’s what the navy like to call all their doctors.

’Probationer’ because they were final year(s) medical students, but not yet fully qualified doctors.

And RNVR because that was the entry route for non-permanent, non-professionally qualified volunteer officers.

 

Whereas a ‘Temporary Surgeon’ would have been a professionally qualified doctor who volunteered for wartime service only.

I may be wrong here, but as I understand it (from looking at the records of a number of these guys) Temporary Surgeons were initially entered as RNVR, but later in the war it appears that the Navy transferred them to official become ‘Surgeon Lieutenants RN’.

Feel free to disagree.

MB

Correction: ‘Temporary Surgeons’ were entered on the books as ‘RN’ - only ‘Surgeon Probationers’ were RNVR.

 

 

Edited 4 August , 2021 by KizmeRD

[seaJane]

It's all very fuzzy, I agree. Right at the end of the war some who would originally have begun as surgeon probationers were taken on as surgeon sub-lieutenants.

[KizmeRD]

 In 1918, when the RNMS became a military instead of a civil branch of the Navy, the medical officer rank system was also revised. Instead of Surgeon, Staff Surgeon, Fleet Surgeon etc. we now saw the more familiar ranks of Surgeon Lieutenant, Surgeon Lieutenant Commander, Surgeon Commander being used.

UK medical students (including some from Canada) were recruited into the RNVR in order to provide medical cover on smaller units of the fleet. They were students in their third or fourth year of training and the intention was that they were to be appointed for just a six month period, before (supposedly) returning to complete their medical studies and exams. However, many continued well beyond this notional six-month period.

‘Surgeon probationer’ was officially a non-commissioned rank, but this changed in 1918 when (as previously mentioned), the medical rank structure got revised. Thereafter, ‘Surgeon probationer’ became a proper commissioned rank i.e. ‘surgeon sub-lieutenant’.

Richard Allison, a former surgeon probationer himself, wrote a book in 1979 (imaginatively titled ‘The Surgeon Probationers’).

MB

 

Edited 1 August , 2021 by KizmeRD

[seaJane]

Indeed - it is on the bibliography I posted above.

[KizmeRD]

I read Allison’s book about five years ago now (he also wrote one on HMS Caroline too).

After the war he became a permanent reservist attached to Ulster Division RNVR.

MB

[penfold]

Thank you for all of your input.  This was very helpful and has enabled me to find folk that previously I only had confirmed via The Navy Lists.

 

[horatio2]

11 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

UK medical students (including some from Canada) were recruited into the RNVR in order to provide medical cover on smaller units of the fleet.

The Admiralty medal rolls record that nearly 550 Surgeon Probationers RNVR earned their medals in that rank.

11 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

‘Surgeon probationer’ was officially a non-commissioned rank

Could you explain this, MB? If they were not commissioned into the RNVR and did not hold warrant rank they could only be ratings. Seems a bit unlikely as they appear on the officers/warrant officers medal roll. Or did they equate to cadets and midshipmen? The Navy List shows them under the heading "Offcers holding temporary commissions in the RNVR" and makes no distinction between them and the other temporary commissioned officers.

Edited 31 July , 2021 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

14 hours ago, horatio2 said:

The Admiralty medal rolls record that nearly 550 Surgeon Probationers RNVR earned their medals in that rank.

Could you explain this, MB? If they were not commissioned into the RNVR and did not hold warrant rank they could only be ratings. 

Apologies for what I am about to say, which is certain to sound overly pedantic, but within the Royal Navy it is generally accepted that only officers who have qualified in their particular branch and have the entitlement to receive a commissioning scroll from the Sovereign are proper ‘commissioned officers’.

According to King’s Regulations Royal Navy (Art. 223) the lowest rank of commissioned officer for medical officers (civil branch) was ‘Surgeon’. As such ‘Surgeon Probationers’, (ranking below Surgeon) most probably equated to that of an Acting-Sub-lieutenant or Midshipman (military/executive branch).

During the Great War Period the subordinate officer grades were Acting Sub-lieutenant, Midshipman and Officer Cadet. 

Large numbers of medical students did short (and some far longer) stints as Naval Surgeon Probationers, before returning to Medical School to complete their exams - after which some then returned to the navy as qualified Naval Surgeons, whilst many others went off and joined the RAMC. I think the actual numbers of Surgeon probationers during the entire course of the war was perhaps nearer to 1,200* - but perhaps only 550 received War and Victory medals from the Admiralty (whilst others may have received their’s from the War Office). Due to the short-term transient nature of their service, many Surgeon Probationer records are poorly recorded.

MB

*PS The figure given by RS Allison is 1,029.

Edited 31 July , 2021 by KizmeRD
PS added

[KizmeRD]

For those interested, here is a photo of the uniform worn by a Surgeon Probationer RNVR (John Hislop, KIA at Jutland onboard HMS Nessus).

MB

 

[KizmeRD]

I have now located the appropriate regulations for entry into the Royal Naval Medical Service as a Surgeon Probationer, and it clearly states that ‘Surgeon Probationers rank with Sub-lieutenants RNVR’ (Consistent with the above photo and contrary to my earlier posting - and also contrary to information provided by Simon Eyre in Surgeons of the Royal Naval Medical Service in the First World War - in which he expressly states that ‘The rank of surgeon probationer was a non-commissioned rank’).

MB

On further reflection, Simon Eyre was probably confusing the lack of executive curl on the sleeve lace of Surgeons with the misconception that this somehow signified that they were not commissioned rank. 
 

Edited 1 August , 2021 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

A good find, MB, which helps to clarify things.

Interestingly, in the previous page 317 of the British Medical Journal of 8 Aug 1914, the full article is headed:-

"Call for Temporary Surgeons and Surgeon Probationers (Student-Dressers).

Surgeons for temporary service in the Royal navy are required. Surgeon Probationers in the Royal [Naval] Volunteer Reserve – that is to say senior students to act as dressers – are also required."   https://www.bmj.com/content/2/2797/317

I have located very few naval MOs identified as 'dressers', the medal rolls providing the source:-

The Admiralty 1914 Star Roll includes six civilian ‘dressers’, (some noted as 'Mr') serving with 1^st British Field Hospital, Belgium.

1 – later Captain RAMC

2 – later Ty Surg Lt George William FINDLAY MB RN (Sen 22 Dec 1915))

3 – later Ty Surg Lt William H SARRA RN (Sen 26 Aug 1916)

4 – later Lt RFC

5 – later Captain RAMC

6 – later Captain RAMC

Also found (missing from 1914 Star Roll) –

7 – Ty Surg Prob David John ADAMS-LEWIS RNVR (Sen 30 Jun 1915). Served as a Dresser, British Red Cross Unit No.5, Boulogne, Nov 1914. Later Captain RAMC

8 – Ty Surg Lt  Frederick George Edward HILL MB RN (Sen 12 Jul 1916). Served as a Dresser, British Red Cross Unit No.7 Boulogne, Nov 1914.

I suppose it is possible that the 'non-commissioned' intake that we have been discussing are those medical students who did not quite meet the exam status for Ty Proby Surg and were hired as civilian dressers.

[KizmeRD]

Interestingly, back in 1913, it appears that someone in the RNMS and/or Admiralty was alert to issues likely to be encountered with regards to potential shortages of medical personnel within the fleet in the event of war, because on 19 December 1913 an Order-in-Council established the rank of Surgeon Probationer RNVR under authority of the Naval Forces Act 1903. Once hostilities commenced, that foresight enabled the first group of Surgeon Probationers to be entered as early as 28 September 1914. (The rank was terminated at war’s end).

From what I’ve read, Surgeon-Probationers RNVR got appointed from a waiting list of applicants in batches of 15 and underwent one month’s basic training at Haslar (later on, courses were also run aboard the hospital ship ‘Plassay’ at Scapa Flow). On completion they were usually drafted to destroyers or other smaller ships which ordinarily would not carry medical practitioners, although some lucky ones also served aboard hospital ships, and a few others were sent to join Armed Merchant Cruisers.

MB

PS As I understand it ‘Dressers’ (medical students serving with military medical units) were commonly employed during the Great War. And it now seems that the navy also toyed with the term (initially at least) in parallel with what soon purely became ‘Surgeon Probationers’.  Unlike their army counter-parts, young medical students in the navy, seldom had the luxury of working alongside qualified medical supervisors on a daily basis, and so the term ‘surgeon probationer’ was perhaps a more befitting term bearing in mind the role and responsibilities (which through necessity, was far more that just the provision of basic first aid). Once onboard ship (regardless of their young age and  lack of formal medical qualifications) it would have been usual for the crew to simply refer to them as ‘doc’!

 

Edited 1 August , 2021 by KizmeRD