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Remembered Today:

Two regiments, one photo


ChrisAllonby

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A WWI photo from about 1915 has just come into my possession. It's a group photo of 12 men. Apparently two of them are my great uncles and they are sitting next to each other. However they served in different regiments.

Henry Ibison, 19433, South Lancashire Regiment ( See CWGC listing)

Thomas Ibison, 13793, Border Regiment (See CWGC listing)

Why might they be in the same photo? Please see the attached photo. T Ibison, middle row, position 1, H Ibison, next to him. I would be very grateful for any information that can be gleaned from this picture.

Both men were killed in action in the Battle of the Somme, July 1916.

post-6807-1113246880.jpg

Thanks,

Chris Allonby.

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A WWI photo from about 1915 has just come into my possession. It's a group photo of 12 men. Apparently two of them are my great uncles and they are sitting next to each other. However they served in different regiments.

Henry Ibison, 19433, South Lancashire Regiment ( See CWGC listing)

Thomas Ibison, 13793, Border Regiment  (See CWGC listing)

Why might they be in the same photo? Please see the attached photo. T Ibison, middle row, position 1, H Ibison, next to him. I would be very grateful for any information that can be gleaned from this picture.

Both men were killed in action in the Battle of the Somme, July 1916.

Judging by the visible cap-badges, this is a photo of a group of soldiers from the 11th Bn Border Regiment during the early days of training (no shoulder titles issued yet and non-standard buttons).

Is it possible that Henry began his service with the 11/Borders and was then transferred before leaving for France? (If he left the UK with the S.Lancs, then his MIC won't show any details of his 11/Borders experience - you will find it on his service papers and in the medal rolls , though).

My theory is that, at the time of this photo, both men actually were in the same regiment and battalion.

Dave.

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Not sure if this helps or confuses, but "Soldiers Died...." says that Henry was "formerly 11715, R. Lancs. Regt."

I think the 4th Bn was based in or near Ulverstone early in the war.

Tom

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Gentlemen,

Thank you for the information. Yes, it is possible that Henry began his service with the 11/Borders. The two men did indeed come from Ulverston. You refer to 'Soldiers died....'. I looked this up on the 'Net and it seems to be a CD containing extensive details of war casualties. Unfortunately it costs about £260. There appears to be an on-line version of it, or perhaps you submit a query and someone looks up the records for you. In any event, it's off line at the moment.

Do you have access to this great resource? If so, would you do me a favour and look up the records for Thomas Ibison and Henry Ibison?

Regards,

Christopher Allonby,

Middlesbrough.

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Christopher.

Private Henry Ibison 19433

2nd Battalion, Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment).

Born, Ulverston, Lancs.

Enlisted, Fleetwood, Lancs.

Residence, Ulverston.

Killed in Action, 3/7/16.

and as Tom said, formerly served as 11715, R.Lancs Regt.

and,

Private Thomas Ibison 13793

11th Battalion, Border Regiment.

Born, Ulverston, Lancs.

Enlisted, Kendal, Westmorland.

residence, Ulverston.

Killed in Action, 10/7/16.

Hope that helps Christopher.

Regards, Chris.

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Thank you to everyone who's helped with my enquiry. The information you've provided is first class.

Regards,

Chris.

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I hesitate indeed to question Dave (Croonaert) having been a recipient of his expert advice in the past, but having served with the 9th Borders more years ago than I care to remember the cap badges don't look like the Border Regt., badges to me.

Regards Cliff.

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I hesitate indeed to question Dave (Croonaert) having been a recipient of his expert advice in the past, but having served with the 9th Borders more years ago than I care to remember the cap badges don't look like the Border Regt., badges to me.

            Regards Cliff.

Cliff,

Can you identify the type of badge? Forgive my ignorance in these matters, but after enlisting what would be the normal course of events? The two men in question enlisted at different places, one in Kendal (Thomas) and one in Fleetwood. At what point after enlisting would a soldier be assigned to his regiment? If they enlisted in different regiments would there be an opportunity for such a photograph?

Regards,

Chris.

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Chris.,

Sorry for the delay in answering your post, I have been looking at various sources to try to identify the cap badge shown but without any luck. Looking at the faces and the bearing of the soldiers they seem to have a bit of the old soldier look about them ( not recruits), neat putttees and the soldier next to the L/Cpl. looks as if he has lost a stripe.

Best of luck in your search, I find that in my own case the local paper archives, (copies in most public labraries) were very useful.

Cliff.

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I hesitate indeed to question Dave (Croonaert) having been a recipient of his expert advice in the past, but having served with the 9th Borders more years ago than I care to remember the cap badges don't look like the Border Regt., badges to me.

Oh ye of little faith... :P:D

The 11th Borders, the Lonsdales, had their own unique badge, Cliff.

Dave....

post-357-1113767434.jpg

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The two men in question enlisted at different places, one in Kendal (Thomas) and one in Fleetwood. At what point after enlisting would a soldier be assigned to his regiment? If they enlisted in different regiments would there be an opportunity for such a photograph?

Chris.

As you can see, I'm sticking by my 11/Borders ID. These were a sort of "Pals" unit and, at the beginning of the war, the soldiers would have joined up straight into this battalion by choice, rather than by assignation. An early war volunteer could basically choose his unit (within reason) and not too much should be read into the actual place of enlistment.

Dave.

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Cliff/Dave,

Thanks for the info. I've zoomed in as far as I could on the photo and the badges do appear to be 11th Battalion, Borders. Based on your other comments it seems reasonable to assume that they could have been on the same photo after joining up. Unfortunately I don't know the date; I'm making further enquiries.

Regards,

Chris.

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Hi Chris

There was a small history of the 11th Borders written about ten years ago which I have a copy of. If I can look anything up for you let me know. As you can see from my signature I too lost a relative with the 11th but he transferred in from the Herefords after the diasasters in July.

All the best Hambo

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Looking at the faces and the bearing of the soldiers they seem to have a bit of the old soldier look about them ( not recruits), neat putttees and the soldier next to the L/Cpl. looks as if he has lost a stripe.

I agree. They have that look of quiet confidence about them. I think these men have seen at least some service, if they're not actually Regulars.

Cheers,

Ste

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I agree.  They have that look of quiet confidence about them.  I think these men have seen at least some service, if they're not actually Regulars.

Cheers,

Ste

Then why no shoulder insignia, extremely new looking uniforms and, (in the case of the majority) non-regulation buttons? Might be reservists called in to provide the "backbone" to the (at this time) "virgin soldiers" of the Lonsdales, but I doubt it for some reason.

I don't know, but I'm hesitant to agree that they've seen service. To me they look no different from thousands of other men of this era and before. The expressions, the confident poses and the "rugged toughness" in the aura that seems to surround them mirrors that found on photos of groups of mine-workers, navvies, quarrymen, land-workers ,etc., along with soldiers from the 1800's through to the 1940's.

Dave.

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Chris..............Can't help with your question, but I'd like to say thanks for posting the photo as its always nice to remember a couple of Ulverston boys.........

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Then why no shoulder insignia, extremely new looking uniforms and, (in the case of the majority) non-regulation buttons? Might be reservists called in to provide the "backbone" to the (at this time) "virgin soldiers" of the Lonsdales, but I doubt it for some reason.

I don't know, but I'm hesitant to agree that they've seen service. To me they look no different from thousands of other men of this era and before. The expressions, the confident poses and the "rugged toughness" in the aura that seems to surround them mirrors that found on photos of groups of mine-workers, navvies, quarrymen, land-workers ,etc., along with soldiers from the 1800's through to the 1940's.

Dave.

Hi Dave,

good points, and I can't disagree with the details about uniform etc.

However, regarding coalminers, dockers, etc, Iagree that their hard physical occupations gave them a partircular 'air'; however, I think that when those same industrial hardmen were first put into khaki you can sometimes detect some enthusiam, excitment, nervousness or apprehension in their expressions, as if the novelty of their situation was causing a new mix of emotions.

All very touchy feely, and no hard proof I know!

Ste

PS - has the chap in the middle at the front very recently removed his cap?

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Chris..............Can't help with your question, but I'd like to say thanks for posting the photo as its always nice to remember a couple of Ulverston boys.........

Will,

No problem. It would be great to identify others in the photo. How on earth that could be done is anyone's guess. I wondered about sending it to the Evening Mail in Barrow for publication in the 'Memories' feature, but it's not certain that the photo was taken in Ulverston. Perhaps the Westmorland Gazette, with its wider circulation in north Lancashire, might be a better bet.

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It would be great to identify others in the photo. How on earth that could be done is anyone's guess. I wondered about sending it to the Evening Mail in Barrow for publication in the 'Memories' feature, but it's not certain that the photo was taken in Ulverston. Perhaps the Westmorland Gazette, with its wider circulation in north Lancashire, might be a better bet.

Chris.........It can't hurt to try............worst case scenario is nothing comes of it but there's always a chance some info might be forthcoming :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Chris

I hadn't noticed this post before. Sorry to be so remiss.

The 11th Borders were based at Carlisle Racecourse for training during part of 1915, also at Leyburn Camp, North Yorkshire. I have pictures Here

from various parts of the training- if you would like copies- email me.

The huts in the background look very much like the ones on Racecourse Camp pictures I have.(* this has been edited as I had a brainstorm and wrote Leyburn*)

I also have the book -The Lonsdale Battalion 1914-1918 and the man sitting at the front left seems familiar- give me a chance to look at home and I may be able to identify him

The Lonsdales were a Pals Battalion with very few regulars- I can only suggest the "rugged toughness " is the Cumbrian in them coming out- a lot were wiry farmhands, miners and the likes. Their badge was the emblem of Lord Lonsdale- the founder of the Battalion- and is unlike other Border Regiment badges.

Hambo-re 18/11/16- Frankfort Trench

I know a man from Southampton whose Great Uncle( from Wigton, Cumbria) was Killed on the way back from that attack( by indirect m/c gun fire).

Coincidence, eh.

Edited by spike10764
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  • 4 months later...

Hello All,

It has been a while since i last logged on but I'm back. What an interesting thread. With reference to the photo at the beginning have all the people been identified? I am still on the trail of my relative,Fred Farmer, 11 Bn Border Regt, who was killed attacking the Munich Trench in Nov 1916. Could one of these fine young men be him?

Neil

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Hi Dave,

good points, and I can't disagree with the details about uniform etc.

However, regarding coalminers, dockers, etc, Iagree that their hard physical occupations gave them a partircular 'air'; however, I think that when those same industrial hardmen were first put into khaki you can sometimes detect some enthusiam, excitment, nervousness or apprehension in their expressions, as if the novelty of their situation was causing a new mix of emotions.

All very touchy feely, and no hard proof I know!

Ste

PS - has the chap in the middle at the front very recently removed his cap?

Ste,

Have to agree with Dave that it's unlikely they're regulars or even ex-regular reservists. I have more than a 1,000 of these such photo's in my collection to the Northumberland Fusiliers and you'd be hard pressed to tell which were regulars and which were not, especially after months of training.

By the time this photo was taken the regular Border Bn's had been at the front since August 1914, the 11th Borders weren't raised until the September. The Battalion was supposed to go into a hutted camp at Blackhall Racecourse, but it was never completed and the Battalion ended up in the Granstand, stables and other temporary shelter, so they didn't get into a hutted camp until May 1915.

Their Reserve Bn wasn't formed until after the arrival of the 11th Bn at Prees Heath Camp, which is where I suspect this photo was taken.

Their cap badges were originally in hall marked silver paid for by the Earl of Lonsdale, but since they were being swiped at a regular rate they were eventually changed to gilding metal.

Graham

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  • 2 years later...
A WWI photo from about 1915 has just come into my possession. It's a group photo of 12 men. Apparently two of them are my great uncles and they are sitting next to each other. However they served in different regiments.

Henry Ibison, 19433, South Lancashire Regiment ( See CWGC listing)

Thomas Ibison, 13793, Border Regiment (See CWGC listing)

Why might they be in the same photo? Please see the attached photo. T Ibison, middle row, position 1, H Ibison, next to him. I would be very grateful for any information that can be gleaned from this picture.

Both men were killed in action in the Battle of the Somme, July 1916.

post-6807-1113246880.jpg

Thanks,

Chris Allonby.

Hi! Don't know if you are still interested but the Ibisons are named on 3 memorials (poss 4 - need to be on other computer) in Ulverston. Also mebe on the family grave. I would much like a scan of the photo if poss!? If you want pics of the mems let me know.

Ian L

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