11 South Lancashire (St Helens Pals)

[Charles Fair]

I have a complete photocopy of this - My Great Uncle Lt-Col Carl Champion DSO commanded the battalion, and his two younger brothers both served in it.

[tom parker]

I have a complete photocopy of this - My Great Uncle Lt-Col Carl Champion DSO commanded the battalion, and his two younger brothers both served in it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Charles: Can you find any reference to Michael McGann (my grandfather) in the war diary - he served with 1/5 Bn SLR throughout the War - he was awarded the MM in Oct 1916 and promoted to Acting CSM in August 1916 (later made permanent) - he was wounded in action - I understand that he was attached to Bn HQ at some point. I'm trying to establish the details surrounding his wounding/promotion/decoration... I appreciate that these details might not be in the War Diary, but any clue that would help my researches would be gratefully received.

Ragards

Tom Parker

[John_Hartley]

Tom

Charles' diary is 11/South Lancs. You are asking about 5/South lancs.

That said, I think Forum member "Ste" has a copy of the 1/5th - perhaps a PM to him

John

[kev mc]

I have a complete photocopy of this - My Great Uncle Lt-Col Carl Champion DSO commanded the battalion, and his two younger brothers both served in it.

Hi Charles,

I would be grateful if possible if you could look to see if there is any mention of the following in the war diary;

Private Thomas McDonald (11978, 2nd Battalion, Prince of Wales's Volunteers, South Lancashire Regiment) killed In Action Monday 3rd July 1916.

Corporal Michael C Holmes (Corps - South Lancashire Regiment, Regiment No - 240699, Rank - Corporal)

My GG Grandfather and G Grandfather.

Thanks

Kev

[Norrette]

Charles,

My Gt Grandfather (Sgt H O Adams/22569) transferred into the 11th on 24.Jun.1916 and was wounded on or around 21st March 1918 - do you have any pages around that date regarding action?

Many, many thanks in advance if you could find something. Do you have them in electronic format?

Regards

Norrette

[Charles Fair]

Private Thomas McDonald (11978, 2nd Battalion, Prince of Wales's Volunteers, South Lancashire Regiment) killed In Action Monday 3rd July 1916.

Corporal Michael C Holmes (Corps - South Lancashire Regiment, Regiment No - 240699, Rank - Corporal)

Kev - my aplogies for not having replied on this. I was away at the time and did not see your post.

Unfortunately neither of these were in this battalion. The first man was in the 2nd battalion as you say whereas the WD I have is for the 11th. The second man was in TF battalion as shown by his 6 digit post March 1917 TF number so he would have been in either the 4th or 5th S Lancs, each of which had first and second line battalions. Hopefull you know which one from his MIC.

[Charles Fair]

My Gt Grandfather (Sgt H O Adams/22569) transferred into the 11th on 24.Jun.1916 and was wounded on or around 21st March 1918 - do you have any pages around that date regarding action?

Many, many thanks in advance if you could find something. Do you have them in electronic format?

Hello Norette,

Unfortunately I don't have it electronically yet. I only have a photocopy from the old days before digi cameras were allowed in the PRO. That is a job for my next visit. Unfortunately I don't have my copy to hand as it is with my father who lives some way from me. (My father uses it on a talk on my great uncle which he has given for a few WFA branches.)

The WD does have some detail on the March retreat, and it does allow you to work out where all the companies were at the time of the attack. A few years ago my afther and I followed the route all the way back. You may have found out by now that a member of the 11 S Lancs was awarded the VC during the March retreat, the only VC to be awared to a pioneer battalion. Click here for the wikipedia entry: John Thomas Davies VC

On 24 March 1918 near Eppeville, France, when his company was ordered to withdraw, Corporal Davies knew that the only line of withdrawal lay through a deep stream lined with a belt of barbed wire and that it was imperative to hold up the enemy as long as possible. He mounted the parapet in full view of the enemy in order to get a more effective field of fire and kept his Lewis gun in action to the last, causing many enemy casualties and enabling part of his company to get across the river, which they would otherwise have been unable to do.

I believe that the VC was posthumous, but was later collected in person as Davies was in fact a POW and died in 1955. There is a good acount in the relevant volume of the VCs in the Great War series.

I will be able to post/send more in due course when I either make an electronic copy or get my photocopy back.

[Norrette]

Thanks for this Charles. I have been so focussed on my men that were KIA that I have ignored the South Lancs a bit so I don't even know which battle they were retreating from, I expect your wiki link will explain when I finish reading here.

I took a look on the Kew website for their diaries, some months ago now, but couldn't find them. I'm not far from Kew so could look it up myself - do you have a reference that might help me?

Norrette

[Charles Fair]

Norette, yes, PROCAT is not as helpful as it could be. The piece number for the 11 S Lancs war diary is WO 95/2323. There are 4 pages of typed foolscap which describe the battalion's actions in the March Retreat 21-28 March 1918. Its a little too much for me to type out unfortunately.

I would also recommend checking out WO 95/2313 which is 30 Division HQ War Diary. There are 30 manuscript pages which are on the usual war diary Army Form C2118. There is also a separate typed account of the division which runs to a further 19 pages. Given that the companies of 11 S Lancs were often split up and operting independently, this is a useful source and check against the bn war diary.

[Norrette]

Fantastic Charles, that'll save me looking for the proverbial needle. Much appreciated. I've got a new reason for tripping to Kew now :-), I always enjoy a day out there

[Stephen Nulty]

Charles

I have about half a dozen men on my list of men from Prescot who died in the war serving with the 11th, but I am specifically interested in anything that the diary might reveal about CSM Herbert Louis Boyer.

He died on 29/03/1918 and is remembered on the Pozieres Memorial. I have his service record and various bits and pieces of information pertaining to him, but I do not have anything from the diary.

I'd be grateful for anything you could provide.

Many thanks in anticipation

Stephen Nulty

[Charles Fair]

I now have this electronically, its 69 pages in total. Local historian Dave Risley is going to transcribe it, and I am going to add in additional material from the Divisional HQ and A&Q War Diaries as appropriate.

[Donald Mogg]

Hello Charles,

A shot in the dark but !!!!!!!!

My grand father Augustine David Mogg (private) No 43579 possibly in the 11th Service Battalion of the South Lancashire Regiment. went to France in late 1917 or early 1918. He was gassed and eventually transferred to the Labour corps No 561301 later. Any information would be a blessing, I know you are very busy so best wishes.

Don

[Charles Fair]

I am specifically interested in anything that the diary might reveal about CSM Herbert Louis Boyer.

Stephen - my apologies, I dont appear to have ever replied to this. No mention of CSM Boyer unfortunately.

My grand father Augustine David Mogg (private) No 43579 possibly in the 11th Service Battalion of the South Lancashire Regiment.

Don, No mention of Private Mogg unfortunately.

[Stephen Nulty]

Stephen - my apologies, I dont appear to have ever replied to this. No mention of CSM Boyer unfortunately.

Charles

No problem

At the Remembrance Service at Prescot on 11th November last, a large wreath was placed at the foot of the memorial with a card "from the family of Herbert Louis Boyer" but I missed seeing whoever had laid it. I'll keep a better eye peeled thie year !!! In addition, I found that his daughter Ada had married my grandad's cousin, Owen Nulty, in 1926 thereby bringing in a distant family link.

[nthornton1979]

I'm seeking any info on 20648: Pte Hugh Thomas KIA 01.07.16.

If you get time I'd love to know if he gets a mention in the diaries.

Thanks

Neil

[Charles Fair]

Neil - no mention of Pte Thomas I'm afraid.

Charles

[nthornton1979]

No roblem, Thanks for the look-up

Neil

[GraemeClarke]

Charles,

A tall order, I know (as there are so many), but can you help with the WD on any of the following dates, please,

Thursday 29 June 1916

Saturday 1 July 1916

Sunday 8 October 1916

Friday 9 March 1917

Sunday 27 May 1917

Tuesday 26 June 1917 dow

Saturday 15 December 1917

Wednesday 27 March 1918

Any help would be fantastic as I seem to have very little on the 11th Battalion.

Many thanks,

Graeme