Martin Dessoy medals

[Ewan D]

HI all, 

Bit of a long shot, but I'm after some help. I was wondering what medals my great grandfather, Martin Dessoy, was applicable for. My great uncle, his son, contacted his old regiment some years ago, but was told all his records were destroyed in air raid during the second world war. I don't suppose there's any other way of finding out what medals he was entitled to? 

Thanks in advance

 

[Dave66]

Ewan,

Ancestry have the medal index cards, and I can’t find a Martin dessoy….only three results shown below.

Dave.

[Ewan D]

8 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Ewan,

Ancestry have the medal index cards, and I can’t find a Martin dessoy….only three results shown below.

Dave.

I did try looking myself, but had the same result. I find it unlikely we'll ever know . Thanks for your assistance though. 

[PRC]

1911 Census of England & Wales has only two Martin Dessoy's - father Martin, (51, born Prussia) and son Martin Peter, (18, born Battersea).  Father was a Baker and son was assisting in the business. Age and place of birth would rule out the father. Is this the right individual?

Both of them are showing up on the 1921 Census of England & Wales, although Martin Peter is now shown as born Walthamstow.

The figure normally quoted is that less than 30% of the eligible male population of England actually served in the armed forces during the Great War, so the starting premise unless there is information to the contrary is that an individual didn't serve, rather than did.

I see there is a marriage of a Martin P. Dessoy to an Annie S. Smeeth recorded in the West Ham District of Essex in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1916. If Martin was serving at that point then this would be recorded under occupation. There is even a chance that information such as unit, service number and where stationed may appear, but it may simply say "Soldier".

The birth records for England & Wales only show four instances of children registered with the surname Dessoy, mothers' maiden name Smeeth, all falling between 1918 and 1933 and in the East End of London \ Essex area. The Q2 1918 birth of Norah Magdalena Dessoy might also be worth checking out for what's recorded under fathers' occupation.

The certificate is also like to furnish what Martin regarded as his home address - even because that was where Norah was born or via the address of the informant who registered the birth. The value of that is that it will provide a guide as to where he would appear on that years' electoral register. The 1918 Representation of the People Act is nowadays mainly remembered for giving the vote to some women, but it's biggest impact at the time was to extend the vote to all men over 21, and for those serving in the armed forces those over 18. It did away with the property requirement or to be a male head of the household paying at least £5 a year in rent. A lot of the new male electorate were away from home so that years Absent Voters List took on a great significance, and reflected what details the registrar could pull together. The biggest issues in trying to use the Absent Voter List to identify if someone served, (even if it was UK only), is firstly identifying where they might have regarded as home, and secondly identifying the relevant list and whether it has survived. Our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, has more on how the Absent Voters List can help and a guide to lists known to have survived. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Hope that helps,
Peter

[Ewan D]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

1911 Census of England & Wales has only two Martin Dessoy's - father Martin, (51, born Prussia) and son Martin Peter, (18, born Battersea).  Father was a Baker and son was assisting in the business. Age and place of birth would rule out the father. Is this the right individual?

Both of them are showing up on the 1921 Census of England & Wales, although Martin Peter is now shown as born Walthamstow.

The figure normally quoted is that less than 30% of the eligible male population of England actually served in the armed forces during the Great War, so the starting premise unless there is information to the contrary is that an individual didn't serve, rather than did.

I see there is a marriage of a Martin P. Dessoy to an Annie S. Smeeth recorded in the West Ham District of Essex in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1916. If Martin was serving at that point then this would be recorded under occupation. There is even a chance that information such as unit, service number and where stationed may appear, but it may simply say "Soldier".

The birth records for England & Wales only show four instances of children registered with the surname Dessoy, mothers' maiden name Smeeth, all falling between 1918 and 1933 and in the East End of London \ Essex area. The Q2 1918 birth of Norah Magdalena Dessoy might also be worth checking out for what's recorded under fathers' occupation.

The certificate is also like to furnish what Martin regarded as his home address - even because that was where Norah was born or via the address of the informant who registered the birth. The value of that is that it will provide a guide as to where he would appear on that years' electoral register. The 1918 Representation of the People Act is nowadays mainly remembered for giving the vote to some women, but it's biggest impact at the time was to extend the vote to all men over 21, and for those serving in the armed forces those over 18. It did away with the property requirement or to be a male head of the household paying at least £5 a year in rent. A lot of the new male electorate were away from home so that years Absent Voters List took on a great significance, and reflected what details the registrar could pull together. The biggest issues in trying to use the Absent Voter List to identify if someone served, (even if it was UK only), is firstly identifying where they might have regarded as home, and secondly identifying the relevant list and whether it has survived. Our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, has more on how the Absent Voters List can help and a guide to lists known to have survived. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Hope that helps,
Peter

Hi Peter, 

That's quite a lot of digging you've done there. I can confirm that my Great grandfather was Martin Peter Dessoy (b.1893). He did serve with the 14th Londons (London Scottish) and we have reason to believe he served with the battalion pre-war also. We have a photo of him in his uniform dated 1916 which was given to my mother when Aunt Norah died about 13 years ago. The information on the absent voter list is very interesting and is a route of investigation I shall peruse. I shall let you know how I get on. 

Many thanks for your help, 
Ewan 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Ewan D said:

He did serve with the 14th Londons (London Scottish) and we have reason to believe he served with the battalion pre-war also.

The pre-war London Scottish regarded themselves as amongst the elite of the Territorial Force and had little trouble maintaining a full establishment as far as I'm aware - and a well trained one as witnessed by their arrival in France in September 1914. But their terms of enlistment were the same as any other TF unit - a man signed up for defence of the home isles. For an extra payment they could also sign for the Imperial Service obligation, envisaged for a Empire conflict like the Boer War. Pre-war and early war this was identified by the presence of a tablet shaped badge over the man's right breast pocket, but the practice died away as the war went on.

While large numbers of the 14th Battalion men seemed to have volunteered immediately for service overseas on declaration of war, it is likely that not all did. Like most TF Battalions this neccesitated a split, with the 1st Line Battalion, (1/14th) holding those who had agreed to serve overseas, and a 2nd Line Battalion, (2/14th) that initially consisted of those who wished to remain home service only, plus new recruits. Later there would be a third line 3/14th.

With the passing of the Military Service Act in early 1916 the distinctions between Regular, Territorial and New Army dropped away, and all were now regarded as liable for overseas service.

It looks from the picture you have posted that the woman present is wearing a wedding ring, so possibly this was taken after the wedding itself.  Martin is still a Private and there appears to be no evidence of an Imperial Service Badge or any trade or skill badges. It's difficult to see his left arm but I would hazard it's a trick of the light rather than a wound stripe on the cuff.

If he got through to the time of his wedding without serving overseas, by serving in the 2/14th for example, then there may have been health issues rather than any reluctance on his part. I suspect what happened next is likely to be revealed by a combination of the Absent Voters List and fathers occupation on Norah's birth certificate. Even if you can track down the 1918 AVL there is no guarantee that having the vote was important to him - so if he didn't apply and the other members of the household didn't put him forward, then he may not be there. The 1919 AVL was much more professionaly organised, (no fault of the previous years team, they had to wait for the legislation to be approved, there had been no electoral register since 1915 and anyway the electorate had massively expanded), and run in tandem with the armed forces. Unfortunately for us trying to do research 100+ years on, a significant number of men (and women) had been released and so were no longer absent voters.

If you don't already have Norahs' birth certificate then ordering a pdf version via the General Registrars Office still costs I believe £7 and is usually available to download within 5 working days. You need to register first but you can do that at the same time as placing your first order. Usually the most straightforward thing to do is to search the index on the site and then take the option to order a copy. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

It's potluck but either way you may learn something from fathers occupation even if it's just confirmation that he was then still a soldier.

Good luck with your search,

Peter

[Keith_history_buff]

Dessoy has been mentioned before