Prisoner of War Uniform Help

[victoriamarie]

The attached picture is of my great grandfather Walter Radcliffe (1888-1954). He was from Leeds and served in the Army in World War One. He was reported missing 3rd May 1917 and was then reported captured as Prisoner of War 17th July 1917 in Germany. He was not returned to England until December 1918. I've been trying to identify the uniform he's wearing but not having much luck.

[Gunner 87]

Hello victoriamarie. Welcome to the forum.

I believe this is a POW uniform either supplied by the Germans or Red Cross. This thread maybe of some use as it has men wearing similar. 

Kind regards 

Gunner.

 

 

Edited 20 May , 2023 by Gunner 87

[Fromelles]

From the Australian War Memoriall collection -

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C119527

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C325553

If interested, are also examples of greatcoats and trousers issued to POWs in the collection 

Dan

[Gunner 87]

8 hours ago, Fromelles said:

If interested,

It doesn't look like the OP has returned to see if her question has been answered.... 

[GWF1967]

39 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

It doesn't look like the OP has returned to see if her question has been answered.... 

This may help.. @victoriamarie  

[victoriamarie]

On 20/05/2023 at 23:54, Gunner 87 said:

Hello victoriamarie. Welcome to the forum.

I believe this is a POW uniform either supplied by the Germans or Red Cross. This thread maybe of some use as it has men wearing similar. 

Kind regards 

Gunner.

 

 

Hi Gunner,

Thank you for the reply and information! I had spoken to someone else a while back that thought it could be a prisoner of war uniform but they weren't sure, but I never got round to checking again until someone recommended me this site. It's crazy to me to think I have a photo of my great grandad while he was a prisoner of war. My mum told me that she was told while he was there it was the first time he'd ever had a duvet.

Victoria 

On 30/05/2023 at 03:58, Fromelles said:

From the Australian War Memoriall collection -

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C119527

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C325553

If interested, are also examples of greatcoats and trousers issued to POWs in the collection 

Dan

Amazing, thank you Dan!

[victoriamarie]

On 30/05/2023 at 12:48, Gunner 87 said:

It doesn't look like the OP has returned to see if her question has been answered.... 

Yes I am interested, I wouldn't have posted otherwise. 

[mancpal]

Have you searched the ICRC archive? If you have name, regiment and his service number there is a reasonable chance of finding out where and when he was captured and at which camps he was registered/ held at. If you’re very lucky you may discover his repatriation date.

With regard to his uniform you will note an ‘armband’ on his left sleeve, these were not an overlay, they were an integral part of the sleeve to identify escapees and also prevent conversion to more civilian style clothing prior to an escape bid. The stripe down the trousers being similar.

Are then any signs of where the photo was taken? I only ask because such photos were frequently taken at camps to send home to family, however returning prisoners would mainly have returned in their POW uniforms and some were photographed in uk studios.

Simon

[victoriamarie]

10 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Have you searched the ICRC archive? If you have name, regiment and his service number there is a reasonable chance of finding out where and when he was captured and at which camps he was registered/ held at. If you’re very lucky you may discover his repatriation date.

With regard to his uniform you will note an ‘armband’ on his left sleeve, these were not an overlay, they were an integral part of the sleeve to identify escapees and also prevent conversion to more civilian style clothing prior to an escape bid. The stripe down the trousers being similar.

Are then any signs of where the photo was taken? I only ask because such photos were frequently taken at camps to send home to family, however returning prisoners would mainly have returned in their POW uniforms and some were photographed in uk studios.

Simon

I did find this a while ago but I'm not really sure what any of it means https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/3779634/698/13376/ he's the third one down, took me a while to find because they mispelt Radcliffe as Ratcliffe.

I found his war records on Ancestry, I'll attach the relevant pages. 

I can't see any signs of when or where it was taken. I don't have the original copy either this is just what my mum's cousin sent to me.

Thank you for the info on the uniform, it's so interesting! I didn't know they were able to keep in touch with family while they were prisoners of war either.

[FROGSMILE]

On 01/06/2023 at 08:20, victoriamarie said:

I did find this a while ago but I'm not really sure what any of it means https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/3779634/698/13376/ he's the third one down, took me a while to find because they mispelt Radcliffe as Ratcliffe.

I found his war records on Ancestry, I'll attach the relevant pages. 

I can't see any signs of when or where it was taken. I don't have the original copy either this is just what my mum's cousin sent to me.

Thank you for the info on the uniform, it's so interesting! I didn't know they were able to keep in touch with family while they were prisoners of war either.

 

 

His statement of service shows clearly that he was ‘deemed to have enlisted’ (under conscription regulations) on 24th May 1916, but not called forward for service until 13 October 1916.  He was then posted on 14th October (the following day) to the 2/6th Battalion of the Prince of Wales’s Own West Yorkshire Regiment and was with them still when reported missing on 3rd May 1917.  They (the battalion) were a ‘second line’ (i.e. originally not volunteered for overseas) unit of the Territorial Force (auxiliary part-time soldiers) who trained weekly at so-called ‘drill halls’ for that purpose located close to their homes.  Usually the men were within walking, or bus trip distance.

From the LongLongTrail adjunct to this forum:

2/6th Battalion
Formed at Bradford on 12 September 1914.
1 March 1915 : came under orders of 185th Brigade, 62nd (2nd West Riding) Division. Moved on 1 March 1915 to Matlock. Moved from Matlock to Doncaster 9 April 1915 and went to Babworth Park near Retford 19 May 1915. On 5 August 1915 it moved to Thoresby Park, then on 24 August it went to Clipstone Camp. It returned to Thoresby 19 September 1915. During October 1916 a series of moves took the battalion to York, and on 28 November 1915 it moved to Victoria Jubilee Schools in Newcastle. On 15 January 1916 the battalion moved to Larkhill on Salisbury Plain. Further moves on 12 June 1916 to Somerleyton near Lowestoft and 1 November 1916 to Bedford.
7 January 1917: landed at Le Havre in France.
31 January 1918 : disbanded in France.

Having been released from confinement as a prisoner of war he was repatriated on 26th December 1918 and posted immediately to the West Yorks regular Regimental Depot and Headquarters at York Infantry Barracks**, Fulford Road, York.  From there he was posted to the regular army 2nd Battalion on 31st May 1919 but was quickly posted thereafter to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion on 25th June 1919.  It isn’t clear at what point he was discharged from the Army.

**renamed Imphal Barracks after WW2, much of it is still standing, but on current plans is due to close in 2028.

 

 

 

 

 

[mancpal]

I have had trouble opening the ICRC link, though it did give me a brief glimpse this morning, I think he was captured on 3/5/17 at or close to Arras and was registered as a pow at Kassel camp. This camp is not necessarily where he was held, many of the large camps acted as dispersal centres and a postal address for prisoners in satellite camps in the same region.

Simon 

[clk]

Hi Victoria,

On 31/05/2023 at 23:20, victoriamarie said:

I did find this a while ago but I'm not really sure what any of it means

What you have found is a copy of a PoW camp register - the place is Cassel (written in red at the top right hand corner of the page).

Image sourced from Archive.org

The column headings of the page translate as:

Column 1 

Lfd. Nr. = Serial number/register entry number

Column 2
a. Familienname = Surname
b. Vorname (nur der Rufname) = Forename (only forename by which known)
c.  nur bei Russen vorname des Vaters = Russians only, forename of father

Column  3
Rank
 
Column 4
a/b. Truppenteil = Unit
c. Komp. = Company
 
Column 5
 a/b. Gefangennahme (Ort und Tag) = Taken prisoner (place & date)
c.  vorhergehender Aufenhaltsort = Previously at (location):
 
Column 6
a. Geburtstag und -Ort = Date & place of birth
b/c.  Adresse des nächsten Verwandten = Address of NOK
 

The record for Walter would seem to read that he arrived at Cassel camp from the front with a wound to his right hip, having been captured on 3.5.1917 at/near Arras whilst serving with an unknown company of the 6th Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment - the service file extract you posted indicates that it was the 2/6 West Yorkshire Regiment (i.e. the 2nd line, 6th Battalion) though.

Regards
Chris

 

[victoriamarie]

On 01/06/2023 at 09:17, FROGSMILE said:

His statement of service shows clearly that he was ‘deemed to have enlisted’ (under conscription regulations) on 24th May 1916, but not called forward for service until 13 October 1916.  He was then posted on 14th October (the following day) to the 2/6th Battalion of the Prince of Wales’s Own West Yorkshire Regiment and was with them still when reported missing on 3rd May 1917.  They (the battalion) were a ‘second line’ (i.e. originally not volunteered for overseas) unit of the Territorial Force (auxiliary part-time soldiers) who trained weekly at so-called ‘drill halls’ for that purpose located close to their homes.  Usually the men were within walking, or bus trip distance.

From the LongLongTrail adjunct to this forum:

2/6th Battalion
Formed at Bradford on 12 September 1914.
1 March 1915 : came under orders of 185th Brigade, 62nd (2nd West Riding) Division. Moved on 1 March 1915 to Matlock. Moved from Matlock to Doncaster 9 April 1915 and went to Babworth Park near Retford 19 May 1915. On 5 August 1915 it moved to Thoresby Park, then on 24 August it went to Clipstone Camp. It returned to Thoresby 19 September 1915. During October 1916 a series of moves took the battalion to York, and on 28 November 1915 it moved to Victoria Jubilee Schools in Newcastle. On 15 January 1916 the battalion moved to Larkhill on Salisbury Plain. Further moves on 12 June 1916 to Somerleyton near Lowestoft and 1 November 1916 to Bedford.
7 January 1917: landed at Le Havre in France.
31 January 1918 : disbanded in France.

Having been released from confinement as a prisoner of war he was repatriated on 26th December 1918 and posted immediately to the West Yorks regular Regimental Depot and Headquarters at York Infantry Barracks**, Fulford Road, York.  From there he was posted to the regular army 2nd Battalion on 31st May 1919 but was quickly posted thereafter to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion on 25th June 1919.  It isn’t clear at what point he was discharged from the Army.

**renamed Imphal Barracks after WW2, much of it is still standing, but on current plans is due to close in 2028.

 

Thank you for the reply and all the explanations. Sorry it has taken me a little while to reply, I don’t get as much time to research as I would like, I do really appreciate the help though. 
 

It’s really interesting to find out more about his time in the war. I have read his records a few times but I don’t understand most of it 😅 I think I remember my mum saying he was injured at some point, possibly something with his hip, as he always walked with a stick. 

thanks again

Victoria

On 01/06/2023 at 10:11, clk said:

Hi Victoria,

What you have found is a copy of a PoW camp register - the place is Cassel (written in red at the top right hand corner of the page).

Image sourced from Archive.org

The column headings of the page translate as:

Column 1 

Lfd. Nr. = Serial number/register entry number

Column 2
a. Familienname = Surname
b. Vorname (nur der Rufname) = Forename (only forename by which known)
c.  nur bei Russen vorname des Vaters = Russians only, forename of father

Column  3
Rank
 
Column 4
a/b. Truppenteil = Unit
c. Komp. = Company
 
Column 5
 a/b. Gefangennahme (Ort und Tag) = Taken prisoner (place & date)
c.  vorhergehender Aufenhaltsort = Previously at (location):
 
Column 6
a. Geburtstag und -Ort = Date & place of birth
b/c.  Adresse des nächsten Verwandten = Address of NOK
 

The record for Walter would seem to read that he arrived at Cassel camp from the front with a wound to his right hip, having been captured on 3.5.1917 at/near Arras whilst serving with an unknown company of the 6th Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment - the service file extract you posted indicates that it was the 2/6 West Yorkshire Regiment (i.e. the 2nd line, 6th Battalion) though.

Regards
Chris

 

Thank you. 

[clk]

Hello Victoria,

5 hours ago, victoriamarie said:

I have read his records a few times but I don’t understand most of it 

The first image you posted is a little unclear in parts, but essentially relates to Walter as a PoW. It contains a number of dates; and admin and list references that are now lost to us. Broadly speaking it says that be went missing from his unit on 3rd May 1917, but was officially accepted as being a PoW at Cassel based on a telegram dated 19th May 1917. It goes on to say that he was captured at Arras* and that he was wounded in the right hip; and that (the war having ended) he was repatriated - arriving back in Dover on 26th December 1918. It also shows that Walter had two service numbers - 6019 and 242375. This is because he was a TF soldier, and the men were were renumbered in 1917 - see here.

The second image gives a potted history of his service, as detailed by Frogsmile in his post. What it also shows is that Walter was posted to the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) for overseas service on 6th January 1917. That ties back nicely to the 2/6 West Yorks leaving Southampton on 6th January 1917, and arriving in Le Havre on the same date. The record also shows that he was discharged to the 'Z' Reserve on 27th November 1919 - i.e. he was deemed fit enough to be recalled in the eventuality of the conflict breaking out again.

* more probably at, or closer to Bullecourt. The Battalion war diary contains a narrative of the attack the Brigade made. It is available as a free download from the National Archives - link. There is help on reading map references here.

Chris

 

[victoriamarie]

2 hours ago, clk said:

Hello Victoria,

The first image you posted is a little unclear in parts, but essentially relates to Walter as a PoW. It contains a number of dates; and admin and list references that are now lost to us. Broadly speaking it says that be went missing from his unit on 3rd May 1917, but was officially accepted as being a PoW at Cassel based on a telegram dated 19th May 1917. It goes on to say that he was captured at Arras* and that he was wounded in the right hip; and that (the war having ended) he was repatriated - arriving back in Dover on 26th December 1918. It also shows that Walter had two service numbers - 6019 and 242375. This is because he was a TF soldier, and the men were were renumbered in 1917 - see here.

The second image gives a potted history of his service, as detailed by Frogsmile in his post. What it also shows is that Walter was posted to the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) for overseas service on 6th January 1917. That ties back nicely to the 2/6 West Yorks leaving Southampton on 6th January 1917, and arriving in Le Havre on the same date. The record also shows that he was discharged to the 'Z' Reserve on 27th November 1919 - i.e. he was deemed fit enough to be recalled in the eventuality of the conflict breaking out again.

* more probably at, or closer to Bullecourt. The Battalion war diary contains a narrative of the attack the Brigade made. It is available as a free download from the National Archives - link. There is help on reading map references here.

Chris

 

Hi Chris

Wow amazing, thank you so much! It's great to be able to get all this information and detail, I never would have been able to figure it out by myself. I'm starting to write up my family history so it will be great to include all this. Him being wounded in his right hip will definitely explain why my mum remembers him walking with a stick. I can't believe he was gone for over a year, it must have been awful. What would have happened when he was captured? Would it have just been like being arrested?

I'll definitely have a read of the war diary, sounds super interesting. 

Thanks again

Victoria

2 hours ago, clk said:

Hello Victoria,

The first image you posted is a little unclear in parts, but essentially relates to Walter as a PoW. It contains a number of dates; and admin and list references that are now lost to us. Broadly speaking it says that be went missing from his unit on 3rd May 1917, but was officially accepted as being a PoW at Cassel based on a telegram dated 19th May 1917. It goes on to say that he was captured at Arras* and that he was wounded in the right hip; and that (the war having ended) he was repatriated - arriving back in Dover on 26th December 1918. It also shows that Walter had two service numbers - 6019 and 242375. This is because he was a TF soldier, and the men were were renumbered in 1917 - see here.

The second image gives a potted history of his service, as detailed by Frogsmile in his post. What it also shows is that Walter was posted to the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) for overseas service on 6th January 1917. That ties back nicely to the 2/6 West Yorks leaving Southampton on 6th January 1917, and arriving in Le Havre on the same date. The record also shows that he was discharged to the 'Z' Reserve on 27th November 1919 - i.e. he was deemed fit enough to be recalled in the eventuality of the conflict breaking out again.

* more probably at, or closer to Bullecourt. The Battalion war diary contains a narrative of the attack the Brigade made. It is available as a free download from the National Archives - link. There is help on reading map references here.

Chris

 

Hi Chris

Wow amazing, thank you so much! It's great to be able to get all this information and detail, I never would have been able to figure it out by myself. I'm starting to write up my family history so it will be great to include all this. Him being wounded in his right hip will definitely explain why my mum remembers him walking with a stick. I can't believe he was gone for over a year, it must have been awful. What would have happened when he was captured? Would it have just been like being arrested?

I'll definitely have a read of the war diary, sounds super interesting. 

Thanks again

Victoria

[mancpal]

Victoria,  

I suspect as Chris mentions that he was nearer to Bullecourt than Arras but the former generally comes under the banner of the battle of Arras.

One of my grandads was captured at Bullecourt within days of your man. I note you are writing up your family history and wondered if you may wish to include that the weather wasn’t good. Unseasonably cold for northern France in May, my grandad was captured in snow.

The process of capture must have varied enormously over the various fronts over 4 years of fighting. If he was captured after injury then it may be he was recovered from the battlefield by the opposition and treated by their medics. 
Mentioned above is his Class Z status, I agree that he must have been fit enough after his return to be placed on reserve though that wouldn’t mean he didn’t need a stick in later life (heading that way myself, a different kind of war in my case, rugby!). 
I know of a letter written by an Australian soldier to his mother after he was liberated, he too was captured at/near Bullecourt at the same time, his name was Dawson and I found it on an Aussie Govt WW1 site. It may give you a bit of background to what happens after capture. 
Neither he nor my grandad were injured when captured so their experiences will no doubt vary, forced Labour behind German lines being one thing.

If you are ever in the vicinity of Bullecourt the museum is worth a visit. Formally the collection of the village Mayor, now housed in a purpose built building.

Simon

[clk]

Hi Victoria, 

There is some information about PoWs on the LLT - link. Free to download from the National Archives is PoW report made by another 2/6 West Yorks man who was captured on the same day as Walter (link), but he was held at different camps.

There is also this record for a RAMC Captain who worked in the hospital in the camp at Cassel, part of which is attached below, which might reflect some of the conditions that Walter was put to work under.

Image sourced from the National Archives

Chris

[clk]

Hello again Victoria,

In the Division HQ (General Staff) war diary (link) it shows the position of the Battalion in the early morning of 3rd May.

On the image below, I've placed a green line which, I hope, approximately represents map reference U.28.c.2.3 to U.27.c.6.7 that units of the 185 Infantry Brigade held - just south of Bullecourt. Hopefully the image/map will also enable you to identify the places/map references noted in the Battalion war diary.

Images sourced from the National Archives

Regards
Chris

Edited 9 June , 2023 by clk

[victoriamarie]

On 08/06/2023 at 18:31, mancpal said:

Victoria,  

I suspect as Chris mentions that he was nearer to Bullecourt than Arras but the former generally comes under the banner of the battle of Arras.

One of my grandads was captured at Bullecourt within days of your man. I note you are writing up your family history and wondered if you may wish to include that the weather wasn’t good. Unseasonably cold for northern France in May, my grandad was captured in snow.

The process of capture must have varied enormously over the various fronts over 4 years of fighting. If he was captured after injury then it may be he was recovered from the battlefield by the opposition and treated by their medics. 
Mentioned above is his Class Z status, I agree that he must have been fit enough after his return to be placed on reserve though that wouldn’t mean he didn’t need a stick in later life (heading that way myself, a different kind of war in my case, rugby!). 
I know of a letter written by an Australian soldier to his mother after he was liberated, he too was captured at/near Bullecourt at the same time, his name was Dawson and I found it on an Aussie Govt WW1 site. It may give you a bit of background to what happens after capture. 
Neither he nor my grandad were injured when captured so their experiences will no doubt vary, forced Labour behind German lines being one thing.

If you are ever in the vicinity of Bullecourt the museum is worth a visit. Formally the collection of the village Mayor, now housed in a purpose built building.

Simon

Hi Simon

Thank you so much for the information, it'll all be great to include! It's amazing how much more information there is in the records that what I can actually understand, so I really appreciate all the help from you and everyone else.

I'm going to see if any of my mum's cousins have any letters that he may have potentially written home, if he was able to get a photo home hopefully there may be some letters saved! 

Victoria 

[victoriamarie]

On 08/06/2023 at 18:34, clk said:

Hi Victoria, 

There is some information about PoWs on the LLT - link. Free to download from the National Archives is PoW report made by another 2/6 West Yorks man who was captured on the same day as Walter (link), but he was held at different camps.

There is also this record for a RAMC Captain who worked in the hospital in the camp at Cassel, part of which is attached below, which might reflect some of the conditions that Walter was put to work under.

Image sourced from the National Archives

Chris

Amazing, Chris!! Thank you so much.

The article is dreadful, it's awful to think of the conditions he and many others were held under. He died when my mum was very young but she always remembers what a lovely man he was. 

18 hours ago, clk said:

Hello again Victoria,

In the Division HQ (General Staff) war diary (link) it shows the position of the Battalion in the early morning of 3rd May.

On the image below, I've placed a green line which, I hope, approximately represents map reference U.28.c.2.3 to U.27.c.6.7 that units of the 185 Infantry Brigade held - just south of Bullecourt. Hopefully the image/map will also enable you to identify the places/map references noted in the Battalion war diary.

Images sourced from the National Archives

Regards
Chris

Thank you so much Chris.

[clk]

Hi Victoria,

Published Casualty Lists were put in the public domain several weeks after the date of the actual event, and it seems to be the case of where local newspapers picked up some of their reports from. I know that you have the actual dates from the service file for Walter, but nonetheless  I thought that you might like these for your own records:

link

link

1 hour ago, victoriamarie said:

I'm going to see if any of my mum's cousins have any letters that he may have potentially written home,

That would be something quite special to have, and see.

Good luck with your ongoing research.

Regards
Chris

[victoriamarie]

On 09/06/2023 at 21:15, clk said:

Hi Victoria,

Published Casualty Lists were put in the public domain several weeks after the date of the actual event, and it seems to be the case of where local newspapers picked up some of their reports from. I know that you have the actual dates from the service file for Walter, but nonetheless  I thought that you might like these for your own records:

link

link

That would be something quite special to have, and see.

Good luck with your ongoing research.

Regards
Chris

Thank you Chris, I really appreciate all your help!

My mum spoke to her cousin today and she said she has a letter from the King from when he was reported missing and a newspaper clipping of the same, she's going to scan them and send them to me, very exciting!

Victoria