RND , Blue recruitment armlet

[NR72]

Hi all 

Saw a document that suggested that recruits for the RND were issued with a blue armlet (Navy) 

I understand it to be like a Derby scheme arm band to advertise the fact they had been recruited and were waiting for their attestation date.

They had to use it in conjunction with a enrollment card which had to be shown to any RN officer , senior rating and Constable of requested.

On attestation the armlet was surrendered 

Has anyone seen one or have a photo or indeed have one in their possession?

[KizmeRD]

Can you shed any more light on the document you mention?

I’ve seen the armlet - blue with a red fouled-anchor (see IWM image below), but I haven’t been able to locate any regulations or instructions relating to its specific usage.

Also currently a bit confused as to how this fits in with the Derby Scheme - which was instituted in 1915 to assist with military recruitment (not naval).

MB

 

[NR72]

8 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Can you shed any more light on the document you mention?

I’ve seen the armlet - blue with a red fouled-anchor (see IWM image below), but I haven’t been able to locate any regulations or instructions relating to its specific usage.

Also currently a bit confused as to how this fits in with the Derby Scheme - which was instituted in 1915 to assist with military recruitment (not naval).

MB

 

The Derby scheme I mentioned it as they were issued armlets as well

Do you have the link to this IWM photo , looks a bit killick hook to me 

[KizmeRD]

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30076980
 

MB

[horatio2]

I recall (but cannot find chapter and verse) that the blue armlets were issued to volunteers for RN (and RND) service whose engagements were deferred. If the deferment was for a prolonged period (these were most often RN volunteers) they were often entered into the RNVR 'Y' Section (with 'Y' Official Numbers) while continuing their civilian employment pending call-up.

The IWM image answers the OP's specific question

[KizmeRD]

Thank you h2, the issue of naval armbands for RNVR ‘Y’ Section recruits makes a lot of sense.

MB

[Ypres1915]

Here is a link to a discussion about the same armlet.

 

[Lawryleslie]

On 12/04/2023 at 21:14, KizmeRD said:

Can you shed any more light on the document you mention?

I’ve seen the armlet - blue with a red fouled-anchor (see IWM image below), but I haven’t been able to locate any regulations or instructions relating to its specific usage.

Also currently a bit confused as to how this fits in with the Derby Scheme - which was instituted in 1915 to assist with military recruitment (not naval).

MB

 

This looks like a Leading Hands removable badge of rank to me.

[KizmeRD]

Yes, but removable badges of rank were a much later addition to naval uniform (early seventies?) and had velcro or snap-metal button fasteners.

The fouled-anchor symbol now epitomises the navy and perhaps dates all the way back to Lord Howard of Effingham who served as Lord Admiral of England during the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588.  Its use on naval uniforms became widespread with its adoption on naval officers’ buttons and naval swords in the 18th century. Nowadays (in the RN) you commonly see it (amongst other things) being used on the front cover of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship, on the beret badge of naval ratings, and of course as rank insignia on the left arm or shoulders of leading hands (‘Killicks’).

Having now read as much as I can on the introduction of the RNVR ‘’Y’ Scheme during WW1, I can confirm that navy blue brassards with a fouled-anchor design (of the kind shown in an earlier post) were in fact issued to all persons granted deferred-entry into naval service. A similar arm brassard was also adopted during WW2 for a revised naval entry ‘Y’ Scheme (for those educationally qualified for potential officer selection).

MB

Edited 28 September , 2023 by KizmeRD

[NR72]

3 hours ago, Lawryleslie said:

This looks like a Leading Hands removable badge of rank to me.

No this is not a badge of rate ( only RN officers have rank) 

[Lawryleslie]

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Yes, but removable badges of rank were a much later addition to naval uniform (early seventies?) and had velcro or snap-metal button fasteners.

The fouled-anchor symbol now epitomises the navy and perhaps dates all the way back to Lord Howard of Effingham who served as Lord Admiral of England during the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588.  Its use on naval uniforms became widespread with its adoption on naval officers’ buttons and naval swords in the 18th century. Nowadays (in the RN) you commonly see it (amongst other things) being used on the front cover of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship, on the beret badge of naval ratings, and of course as rank insignia on the left arm or shoulders of leading hands (‘Killicks’).

Having now read as much as I can on the introduction of the RNVR ‘’Y’ Scheme during WW1, I can confirm that navy blue brassards with a fouled-anchor design (of the kind shown in an earlier post) were in fact issued to all persons granted deferred-entry into naval service. A similar arm brassard was also adopted during WW2 for a revised naval entry ‘Y’ Scheme (for those educationally qualified for potential officer selection).

MB

Thanks for this explanation.

[Lawryleslie]

11 minutes ago, NR72 said:

No this is not a badge of rate ( only RN officers have rank) 

I beg to differ mate. In 34 years of RN service I was promoted the the ranks of Petty Officer, Chief Petty Officer & Warrant Officer. I agree that all levels below Warrant Officer are classed as rates but men are promoted to the rank of Leading Hand, Petty Officer and Chief Petty Officer.

[NR72]

Well I beg to differ 

[NR72]

25 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

I beg to differ mate. In 34 years of RN service I was promoted the the ranks of Petty Officer, Chief Petty Officer & Warrant Officer. I agree that all levels below Warrant Officer are classed as rates but men are promoted to the rank of Leading Hand, Petty Officer and Chief Petty Officer.

 

[Lawryleslie]

47 minutes ago, NR72 said:

 

You’re arguing semantics. You were advanced to acting  leading rate because "Acting" is not a substantive rank. Whereas I was promoted to the ranks of Petty Officer & Chief Petty Officer but selected for the rank of Warrant Office.

Edited 28 September , 2023 by Lawryleslie

[NR72]

The emphasis is on rate not acting ( this is just an example not mine) 

I did 17 , and it was always rate , look at your own certificates. 

Only rank when you hit WO and above. Always has been 

 

We will have to agree to disagree shippers 

Edited 28 September , 2023 by NR72
Added

[KizmeRD]

Leaving the finer points of naval semantics behind, I doubt any of us ever wore their rate insignia on an arm brassard (not unless they were a sea cadet).

MB

[NR72]

5 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Leaving the finer points of naval semantics behind, I doubt any of us ever wore their rate insignia on an arm brassard (not unless they were a sea cadet).

MB

No maybe not. But this brassard was not worn by serving matelots , just like the Derby scheme 

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, NR72 said:

No maybe not. But this brassard was not worn by serving matelots , just like the Derby scheme 

Yes, that’s exactly the point that I was trying to make, only the thread got a bit side-tracked with other issues.

MB