aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) Hello, I appreciate the information from this group. I recently purchased a dirk from what I think is from the late 19th century. It has the Scots gaurd, Q.O. Cameron Highlanders and a Blackwatch Symbol on it. I was wondering if it is possible somebody to be part of multiple regiments. There is a stamp on the back of the belt locket they may be a clue. I have not been able to find anything. Could you please give me your thoughts? Edited 30 March , 2023 by aspaulding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) This is such a specialist area of militaria expertise, fraught with pitfalls#, and I am unqualified to advise you with conviction beyond making some key observations that might help you. In general, ornate mounts and etched blades, from the beginning of the 20th Century, were the preserve of commissioned officers only**. Other ranks had plain, unadorned blades (except for all bandsmen), and generic, simple mounts, on the sheaths and finials. First it is not a Scots Guards dirk. The Scots Guards wear two types of dirks, one with plain silver mounts for pipers and one with more ornate, but simplistic mounts for the pipe-major. I enclose images of both. The finials of the hilts have representations of the regimental cap badge. Unlike Scottish line infantry the Scots Guards officers did/do not wear dirks, including the Director of Music. Your dirk is for an officer, as other ranks had simple mounts and a plain crown set on the finial of the hilt. Your dirk has white metal mounts, whereas for Regular line regiments officers they were usually gilded. This suggests a Volunteer Battalion before 1908. Your dirk has the Star of the Order of the Thistle that, in addition to the Scots Guards, was an iconic emblem of the Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment) the most senior line infantry regiment in the British Army. Another of their regimental emblems was the thistle and leaves, again very similar to the Scots Guards and like them worn as collar insignia. Your dirk has a Sphinx emblem. This was granted specifically only to regiments awarded the Battle Honour “Egypt 1801”. One of those regiments was the Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment). The Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment) did not wear a dirk of the pattern you have during Queen Victoria’s reign. They did not wear any Scottish dress items, and certainly not dirks associated with Highlanders (a long time enemy) until after reforms in July 1881. By elimination only it seems possible that your dirk might be associated with a Royal Scots Volunteer Battalion between 1902 and 1908 given the white metal fittings. #there were differences between officers, other ranks, pipe-majors, pipers, and bandsmen. Regimental amalgamations after 1881 and additional auxiliary units all led to very many variants. **for other ranks war department issue dirks were in three patterns (Mark l to Mark III). Mark III was introduced after WW1 and was the first to have a blade without etching. Edited 31 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) Another example of your dirk. Edited 30 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 Its certainly Royal Scots and probably from the "Dandy 9th", the only battalion to wear kilts - pipers didn't usually have the attached cutlery Has the blade not got any engraving on it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, 6RRF said: Its certainly Royal Scots and probably from the "Dandy 9th", the only battalion to wear kilts - pipers didn't usually have the attached cutlery Has the blade not got any engraving on it ? No engraving if you look at the original post images. Dandy 9th ostensibly seemed a distinct possibility. I don’t think they’d have got away with the Sphinx though! Edited 30 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: Your dirk has the Star of the Order of the Thistle that, in addition to the Scots Guards, was an iconic emblem of the Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment) the most senior line infantry regiment in the British Army. Another regimental emblem was the thistle and leaves, again very similar to the Scots Guards and like them worn as collar insignia. Your dirk has a Sphinx emblem. This was awarded specifically only to regiments awarded the Battle Honour “Egypt 1801”. One of those regiments was the Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment). Thank you for the information. It has been difficult for me to figure out anything concrete. I appreciate that you shared you knowledge. Do you know what the significance of this symbol is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, 6RRF said: Its certainly Royal Scots and probably from the "Dandy 9th", the only battalion to wear kilts - pipers didn't usually have the attached cutlery Has the blade not got any engraving on it ? It does not have any type of engravings. The only marks is from R. G. Lawrie and a stamp on the back of the belt locket. I feel like the stamp could be clue. It almost looks like a arsenal or inspection stamp. I'm not sure why my pictures keep showing up sideways. Sorry Edited 30 March , 2023 by aspaulding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) On 30/03/2023 at 18:54, aspaulding said: Only that it represents St Andrew and was common in various designs to several Scottish Regiments insignia, including the Black Watch, Cameron and Seaforth Highlanders and Royal Scots. The three emblems of the Royal Scots awarded fairly early in their history were “The Thistle and Crown”, The St Andrew’s Cross” and “The Sphinx”**. uniformology image with permission. **from 1801. Edited 1 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: “The Thistle and Crown”, The St Andrew’s Cross” and “The Sphinx”. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, aspaulding said: Thank you. Your dirk looks a lot to me like that worn by the Royal Scots piper in the lowermost photo above. Notice the Sphinx at the base of the hilt. Note too the sporran badge. Edited 30 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Your dirk looks a lot to me like that worn by the Royal Scots piper in the lowermost photo above. Notice the Sphinx at the base of the hilt. Note too the sporran badge. Unbelievable, thank you so much. I have been researching for days. What do you think this is? Is it a inspection stamp or maybe the owners intials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: Also do you mind if I share the information you provided with another group that has been trying to help? 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, aspaulding said: Unbelievable, thank you so much. I have been researching for days. What do you think this is? Is it a inspection stamp or maybe the owners intials? It wouldn’t be the owner’s initials. Either an inspection stamp, or inventory stamp, I imagine, but I cannot be definitive. 3 minutes ago, aspaulding said: I do not mind who you share this with. Please go ahead. Edited 30 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It wouldn’t be the owner’s initials. Either an inspection stamp, or inventory stamp, I imagine, but I cannot be definitive. I do not mind who you share this with. Please go ahead. Thank you again for everything. Knowing the history and background of the dirk just makes me enjoy it that much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, aspaulding said: Thank you again for everything. Knowing the history and background of the dirk just makes me enjoy it that much more. I’m glad to help and I was learning bits as I went along too. At first I thought it was an officers dirk because of the ornate design, but the plain unetched blade went against that and before WW1 things were more elaborate. The Mark III Ordnance issue was simplified. Edited 30 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, aspaulding said: Thank you again for everything. Knowing the history and background of the dirk just makes me enjoy it that much more. It’s a fine dirk to own. I knew some good soldiers in the Royal Scots. Neither the regiment I served with at the time, nor theirs, exists anymore. It makes me feel old… Edited 31 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Neither my regiment nor theirs exists anymore. It makes me feel old… Me too, both my old battalions, regular and Territorial have gone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, 6RRF said: Me too, both my old battalions, regular and Territorial have gone... The RRF as a regiment still exists as far as I know. Best not go too far off topic anyway. Edited 30 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s a fine dirk to own. I knew some good soldiers in the Royal Scots. Neither my regiment nor theirs exists anymore. It makes me feel old… Well I appreciate your experience... I will display the dirk forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, aspaulding said: Well I appreciate your experience... I will display the dirk forever. I’m sure that if it could talk it would tell many a story. Edited 30 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: I’m sure that if it could talk it would tell many a story. That is the best part of any blade I own. I always wonder the travels and adventures it has been on, just to end up at my house. You know we never truly own any antique arms. We are just curators for them. Edited 30 March , 2023 by aspaulding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 This thread has a somewhat unusual subject, and I had to do a search for the maker of the dirk; this was R.G. Lawrie & Co, located in Glasgow since 1881. The search also brought up photos of a silver-plated dirk "with companion knife and fork mounted en suite." Did a dirk always come with a knife/fork set??? Also, would Lawrie have been the maker of the dirk, or just the retailer? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 (edited) On 30/03/2023 at 22:51, JMB1943 said: This thread has a somewhat unusual subject, and I had to do a search for the maker of the dirk; this was R.G. Lawrie & Co, located in Glasgow since 1881. The search also brought up photos of a silver-plated dirk "with companion knife and fork mounted en suite." Did a dirk always come with a knife/fork set??? Also, would Lawrie have been the maker of the dirk, or just the retailer? Regards, JMB Yes, the regimental dirk traditionally comes with a knife and fork. It was culturally the norm and supposedly dated back to each highlander carrying what he needed as practical ‘tools’ to live off the land. See the fine officers pattern with gilded mounts below. A smaller knife was also carried inserted in the hose (a stocking) of one leg and called a Sghean Dubh, or Sgian Dubh (see below). It’s all a bit of romantic tosh when you look into it though, and owed more to Sir Walter Scott’s imagination and political agenda than reality. One of the most successfully contrived PR campaigns ever. R. G. Lawrie were makers and one of several contractors to the War Department. “R. G. Lawrie had made bagpipes for Queen Victoria's son, the Prince of Wales, in the 1890s. Robert Lawrie [the Founder] had begun as a turner of ivory billiard balls and moved on to turning bowls before diversifying into bagpipes. In 1881 when the army introduced [complete] pipe bands, the company began to make kilts, sporrans, feather bonnets and dirks. Arthur Lawrie recalled that during the First World War, RG Lawrie produced 150 kilts, 25 side drums and 150 bugles a week.” Edited 7 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspaulding Posted 30 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2023 28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes, the regimental dirk traditionally comes with a knife and fork. It was culturally the norm and supposedly dated back to each highlander carrying what he needed as practical ‘tools’ to live off the land. A smaller knife was also carried inserted in the hose (a stocking) of one leg and called a Sghean Dubh, or Sgian Dubh (see below). It’s all a bit of romantic tosh when you look into it though, and owed more to Sir Walter Scott’s imagination and political agenda than reality. I have had a few sgain dubhs in the past. I guess the search is on for one that matches the dirk. I would love to complete the set. 45 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: This thread has a somewhat unusual subject, and I had to do a search for the maker of the dirk; this was R.G. Lawrie & Co, located in Glasgow since 1881. The search also brought up photos of a silver-plated dirk "with companion knife and fork mounted en suite." Did a dirk always come with a knife/fork set??? Also, would Lawrie have been the maker of the dirk, or just the retailer? Regards, JMB Lawrie did make dirks and sgain dubhs. He also specialized in bagpipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 March , 2023 Share Posted 30 March , 2023 1 minute ago, aspaulding said: I have had a few sgain dubhs in the past. I guess the search is on for one that matches the dirk. I would love to complete the set. The one just above (on purple background) was sold at auction I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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