Conscientious objector information Please

[Dazscuba]

I have been researching a gent in Hedon Road Cemetery in Hull who refused to join the army when conscripted and arrested by the police In Manchester fined and handed over to military authorities, he was CM at Cleethorpes for refusing to obey orders and given two years prison in Hull. The back of his CWGC gravestone looks onto the prison wall. I see he was at Cleethorpes with 3rd Battalion Manchester Reg but can’t find their war diary anywhere. Anybody with more experience able to help with this please. Also anything else I don’t have on William.

 

below is what I have on William so far 

Private, BURNS, WILLIAM EDWARD, Service Number 37734
Born 1882 Failsworth, lancs, Died 19/03/1918, Aged 36
Enlisted Ashton Under Lynne, Manchester in the 3rd Bn. Manchester Regiment
Son of William Henry and Ann Burns of 10, Norman St.. Failsworth. On the 2nd Aug 1916 William was in Manchester County Police Courts where he was fined 40 shillings and ordered to be handed over to the military authorities for failing to join the army when called up.

****William died inside HM Prison Hull and on his soldiers effects he had wages of £29 but due to his detention this was refused so his family did not receive it. An inquest was held at Hull yesterday on William Edward Burns, a conscientious objector, who died in Hull prison, where he was undergoing two years' imprisonment imposed by court-martial at Cleethorpes for disobeying an order .The jury found-that death was due to pneumonia accelerated by forcible feeding, and expressed the opinion that no blame attached to the prison doctor Deceased refused food, and was forcibly fed on 11, 12, and 13 March. He died the following day. The prison doctor said while feeding was going on deceased made a violent respiratory effort, followed by a choking cough. Witness then suspected some of the food had gone the wrong way and this had produced phenomena. At the inquest the doctor stated the following ::The concluding evidence was by Dr E. H. Howlett, prison doctor, who said deceased came under his care on November 16th, and was bodily and mentally fit. The Witness stopped him On March as he was coming out of chapel, and asked him why he would not take food, and he replied the Home Secretary would not listen to his petition, and he had made up his mind to be carried out of the building. Every rule and standing order was obeyed, a  warder was stood behind and held his head and he was fed with equal parts of milk and cocoa. The liquid was passed through the nose.Deceased did not struggle as witness fed him, but on March 11th he made a violent inspiratory effort, followed by a cough, and witness was suspicious some food had gone the wrong way. Witness waited till the spasm had passed and when he was quiet, feeding was resumed.At the latter stage of his illness oxygen was administered. He also refused to take brandy. He produced two letters, written by the deceased on January 26th and February 26th.

[kenf48]

28 minutes ago, Dazscuba said:

I see he was at Cleethorpes with 3rd Battalion Manchester Reg but can’t find their war diary anywhere.

The 3rd (Reserve) Battalion was a Depot/Training unit and was not mobilised for war therefore no requirement to maintain a war diary.

The keeping of war diaries was governed by Field Service Regulations (Part II Organisation and Administration) 1909, as amended. At paragraph 2 it states:-
"2. A war diary will be kept in duplicate(by means of carbon paper) from the first day of mobilisation or creation of the particular command or appointment, by:-
Each branch of the staff at headquarters and at the headquarters of an army, and of all subordinate commands, including garrisons and posts."

I've amended the title of your thread to 'objector' not object.

[Dazscuba]

Afternoon Ken that will be why I can’t find one in the NA or Ancestry. Such a shame am doing a talk on William for MOPs, lots in BNA of his death but not much eLee that I can find. Thank you for the reply

Edited 20 March , 2023 by Dazscuba

[kenf48]

18 minutes ago, Dazscuba said:

Thank you 

You're welcome

There is a more extensive bio here on the PPU site

https://www.menwhosaidno.org/men/men_files/b/burns_william_edward.html

Lots of newspaper articles, but one comment from the Daily News 23rd March on the inquest verdict was,, "If the Government are prepared to condone the killing of these people could they not devise some form which would not be quite such an odious, hypocritical travesty of justice as this."

 

[Dazscuba]

Brilliant thank you again

[sadbrewer]

Abit more from the BN Archive.

 

[Dazscuba]

SB thank you for that appreciated 

[PRC]

On 20/03/2023 at 11:51, Dazscuba said:

on his soldiers effects he had wages of £29 but due to his detention this was refused so his family did not receive it.

The men who said no website lists a wife Marion but she doesn't get a mention on his CWGC entry, only the parents - presumably she had either remarried or changed name as it can't have been easy for her. There is also a lack of an obvious candidate for the marriage in England & Wales. As I don't have subscription access to Ancestry \ Fold 3 can you confirm who it was that actually claimed the outstanding wages, even if it was refused.

Cheers,
Peter

[RaySearching]

I read it as his effects were unissued   (Advertised not claimed?)

Not admissable for a war gratuity

[ss002d6252]

Just now, RaySearching said:

I read it as his effects were unissued   (Advertised not claimed?)

Not admissable for a war gratuity

I'd agree - they advertised his effects in the London Gazette, but no-one claimed them,

Craig

[Dazscuba]

Craig when and what date please ?

[PRC]

Here’s what I have so far.

Likely birth of a William Edward Burns was registered with the civil authorities in the Prestwich District of Lancashire in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1882. Mothers’ maiden name was Handley.

The most likely marriage of his parents was recorded at St. John, Failsworth, on the 29^th February 1880, when William Burns, a Collier, aged 18 and a bachelor of the parish, married an Ann “Hanley”, aged 24, a machinist and spinster of the parish. Marriage was by Banns. William signed the register with a cross. https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Oldham/Failsworth/stjohn/index.html

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales the family turn up with the census taker having recorded the spelling of the family surname as “Burnes”. I tried a couple of genealogy sites and individual members of the household have been transcribed as either “Burnes” or “Burnes” just to make searching for them more difficult! They were living in a dwelling on Jones Street, Moston. Head of the family was father William H., aged 30 and a Coal Miner from Droylsden, “Cheshire”. His wife was the 36 year old Ann, born Sutton, Yorkshire. Children living with them then were:-
May E H………aged 10…..born Failsworth, Lancashire……Mule Hand, Cotton.
Emily………….aged 9……born Chaddeston, Lancashire
William E……..aged 8…… born Failsworth, Lancashire
Alice A………..aged 6…… born Failsworth, Lancashire
Edith…………..aged 4…… born Failsworth, Lancashire
John H………aged 8 months… born Failsworth, Lancashire

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

By the time of the 1901 Census of England & Wales the “Burns” family were recorded living at 23 Eastwood Road, Moston, Manchester. Along with parents William H. , (40, Colliery Labourer above ground, born "Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham) and Ann, (45, born "Barnsley", Yorkshire) were their children:-
Mary Eli?......aged 21….born Failsworth….Calico Weaver
Emily………aged 20….born Chadderton...Cotton Card Room Hand
Edward…….aged 19….born Failsworth….Colliery Banksman above ground
Alice A…….aged 17….born Failsworth….Calico Weaver
Edith………aged 14…..born Failsworth
Annie………aged 6…..born Moston

Struggling to find him in the 1911 Census of England & Wales or a marriage or a William Edward \ Edward William to a Marion \ Marian (Men who said no website – there is no wife named on his CWGC entry.).

His parents meanwhile were recorded living at 17 Derby Street, Failsworth. William Henry, (49, Labourer Coal Pit above ground, born Droylsden, Lancashire) and Ann, (55, born Sutton, Yorkshire), state they have been married 30 years and the union has produced 9 children, of which 6 were then still alive. The three still living at home were their unmarried daughters:-
Emily……..aged 29….born Hollinwood, Lancashire…Cotton Roving Frame Tenter?
Alice Ann…aged 27…born Failsworth………………..Cotton Weaver
Annie……..aged 16….born Moston…………………... Cotton Roving Frame Tenter?    

When daughter Edith, (24, Tenter, Spinster) married on the 9^th April 1910, she gave her address prior to marriage as 17 “Denby” Street, Failsworth. Father was William Burns, Collier. Witnesses included Alice Ann Burns.

And when Alice Ann , (26, Weaver, Spinster) married on the 4^th June 1911 she gave her address prior to marriage as 17 Derby Street, Failsworth. Her father was William Henry Burns, Collier.

Emily, (31, Tenter, Spinster) would marry on the 20^th September 1913 giving her pre-marriage address as 10 Portland Street, Failsworth. Father was William Henry Burns, Labourer.

And Annie, (19, Tenter, Spinster) married on the 31^st May 1914, giving a pre-marriage address of 3 Shepley Street, Failsworth. Father was William Henry Burns, Labourer.

All sourced https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Oldham/Failsworth/stjohn/index.html

Along with the parents wedding that does tend to suggest a CoE background, so unless William was practicing his religion in another way his conscientious objection doesn’t seem to be driven by his denomination.

And while Coal-mining was heavily unionised and militant, by the Edwardian era I’m not so sure about how true this was of the cotton milling industry. The war split both the union membership and the Labour movement with a small but significant minority still advocating for the universal brotherhood of man and how this was a capitalists war.

I’ve not come across anything as yet to indicate what Williams conscientious objection was based on.

Served as 37734 William Edward Burns. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4014467/william-edward-burns/

Men who said no website has him as Edward William Burns. https://www.menwhosaidno.org/men/men_files/b/burns_william_edward.html

Cheers,
Peter               

[Dazscuba]

Peter wow fantastic research and very informative. I have spoken with HMP Hull and they are checking their records see if they have anything on him. Will keep you all updated. 
 

thank you for all your help a patience 

[Matlock1418]

FMP/Fold3 have five pension cards for William/William E/William Edward BURNS, 37734, Manchester Regt

https://www.fold3.com/search?docQuery=(filters:!((type:general.title.id,values:!((label:'UK,+WWI+Pension+Ledgers+and+Index+Cards,+1914-1923',value:'1019')))),keywords:'burns,37734',sortOrder:ALPHABETICAL)

Two where his Mother, Mrs Burns - C/O Mrs J NAYLOR, 63 Hadfield St, Newton Heath, Manchester

E.g. 

and

three where his Guardian, Mrs Phillips - Ball St, Thornton, Bradford [This seems a potentially slightly later claim]

E.g.

Images thanks to WFA/Fold3

are cited.  

M

Edited 21 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
add images

[RaySearching]

Whilst not indicated on the pension records 

Guardian Mis/Mrs Phillips may be the guardian of an illigitimate child 

[kenf48]

You may wish to explore the glossary on the men who said no website

https://www.menwhosaidno.org/basic/glossary.html

Burns was allegedly an absolutist (whilst the website has transposed his forenames they revert in the text).  He may have been a socialist, but they were recommended to seek exemption on grounds of religious conviction.  As others have said I can find no indication of religion other than Anglican, but that does not preclude a religious conviction against war.  As the glossary indicates the Fellowship of Reconciliation brought together many faiths.

Adrian Gregory cites Harry Cartmell (Mayor of Preston throughout the war) and a supposed French proverb that "England is a country of one hundred religions and one sauce". Carmell said, "I do not know about the sauce, but from my work on the Tribunal I am not disposed to disagree with the dictum about religion."  Gregory (The Last Great War) goes on to note that religious objection to war, whilst a minority view was nevertheless treated with great respect by the Tribunals, put simply they were aware of religious conviction and did not wish to create religious martyrs of any faith.

There was a Local Tribunal in Failsworth, but Burns no doubt exhausted all his Appeals, before eventually being mobilised.  As an absolutist he would not have been directed towards the Non-Combatant Corps.  Unfortunately whilst some deliberations of the Tribunal appear in the Manchester Evening News, applicants are not named.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

Whilst not indicated on the pension records 

Guardian Mis/Mrs Phillips may be the guardian of an illigitimate child

An interesting thought - hypothesis possibly supported by the fact that Separation Allowance was paid for 1 [See the PHILLIPS card I posted]

The number of SA indicated on most such cards typically appears to indicate the number of children for whom SA was paid [commonly the child(ren) named, but it does seem to appear not always - so potentially even if the child was not identified this may perhaps suggest there was one]

Guardians may be related, but sometimes not

- Does the surname help? Possibly an undeclared 'unmarried wife' or similar??

- Does the address help/suggest anything like an institution for example?

I've not [yet?] found anthing like that, but ... ???

M

Edited 21 March , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

??? Wife ???

Surname	First name(s)		District	Vol	Page
Marriages Jun 1907   (>99%)
BURNS	William Edward		N. Bierley	9b	458
PHILLIPS	Minnie		N. Bierley	9b	458

Could this him and be the "Marion" mentioned in the 'Men who said no' website ???

M

Edit: North Bierley/Bierley [possible marriage] and Thornton, Bradford [pension claim] are only about 5 miles apart at the crow flies = ???

Perhaps reversion to a possible maiden name wouldn't be that unsuprising given the notoriety of the case = ???

Unfortunately, I'm still just speculating!

Edited 21 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Dazscuba]

Wow you all keep on giving thank you. 

[PRC]

From whats publicly available as a search result of the 1921 Census of England & Wales, there is an Ann Burns, born Sutton, Yorkshire c1855 who was living by herself in a household at Wilpshire, Billington, Blackburn, Lancashire. Sof if her son had a child, legitimate of illegitmate, it wasn't living with her.

And we don't know when Mrs Phillips was living at Thornton, Bradford, Yorkshire. At the time of the 1921 Census here are the Phillips recorded living there. (But could be recorded as Philips, Phillipps or Philipps and any other variation you can think off).

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

So no obvious Marion there and he cannot have been the father of the only one of them born in the 20th Century. Appears to be two households although a look at the actual returns may yield a child with a different surname. Edit - just seen the suggested marriage in the North Bierley District.

Pure speculation on my part but certainly the local tribunals here in Norfolk seem to have been respectful to those individuals with a well documented pre-war history that would support their conscientious objection, but gave those individuals who simply stated it was against their beliefs \ credo \ system of values, etc, very short shrift. The County Appeals Tribunal also had no time for them - unfortunately to modern eyes the verbal mockery was at time excessively cruel and the presumption was that they were shirkers and cowards rather than individuals of conviction. Of course it was some and some, and we will never know the exact proportions of each.

Personal opinion, but without knowing what is stated objections were at the original tribunal and appeal, (and they may have been very valid but downplayed by the tribunal), I wouldn't pick him to use as an example of conscientious objection. Of course if your audience is more interested in his fate then that is a different matter.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Dazscuba]

Thank you Peter food for thought 

[Dazscuba]

2nd Aug 1916, BNA 

Edited 21 March , 2023 by Dazscuba

[PRC]

The 20 year old Minnie Burns, born Thornton, Yorkshire, a married Cotton Weaver, was recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales living back with her widowed mother at 44 Brunswick Street, Nelson, Lancashire.

She had been married three years and has a three year old son William Burns, born Thornton. The nearest match for a birth anywhere in England and Wales is a William Edward Burns, mothers' maiden name Phillips, whose birth was registered in the Oldham District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1908.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Minnies' mother was the 60 year old Sarah Ann Phillips, born Thornton, (so birth c1850/51). Possibly a match for the Sarah Ann Phillips, born Bradford, Yorkshire c1850 who is on the list of Phillips' living at Thornton on the 1921 Census.

Also in the 1911 Census household was a 17 year old Georgina Phillips, born Thornton, (so birth c1893/94). Possibly a match for the Georgina Phillips, born Bradford, Yorkshire c1893 who is on the list of Phillips' living at Thornton on the 1921 Census.

Recorded on the 1921 Census living at Thornton, Yorkshire was a William Edward Burns, born c"1906" at Failsworth, Yorkshire. The sneak peek tells you he was in a household with a Sarah Ann, a Georgina and 1 other - it just doesn't tell you what their surnames were!

Image courtesy FindMyPast

So the one constant factor is that none of the individuals we're interested in consistently record the same place of birth.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

The 20 year old Minnie Burns, born Thornton, Yorkshire, a married Cotton Weaver, was recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales living back with her widowed mother at 44 Brunswick Street, Nelson, Lancashire.

She had been married three years and has a three year old son William Burns, born Thornton. The nearest match for a birth anywhere in England and Wales is a William Edward Burns, mothers' maiden name Phillips, whose birth was registered in the Oldham District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1908.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Minnies' mother was the 60 year old Sarah Ann Phillips, born Thornton, (so birth c1850/51). Possibly a match for the Sarah Ann Phillips, born Bradford, Yorkshire c1850 who is on the list of Phillips' living at Thornton on the 1921 Census.

Also in the 1911 Census household was a 17 year old Georgina Phillips, born Thornton, (so birth c1893/94). Possibly a match for the Georgina Phillips, born Bradford, Yorkshire c1893 who is on the list of Phillips' living at Thornton on the 1921 Census.

Recorded on the 1921 Census living at Thornton, Yorkshire was a William Edward Burns, born c"1906" at Failsworth, Yorkshire. The sneak peek tells you he was in a household with a Sarah Ann, a Georgina and 1 other - it just doesn't tell you what their surnames were!

Image courtesy FindMyPast

So the one constant factor is that none of the individuals we're interested in consistently record the same place of birth.

Genealogy certainly isn't my specialist subject like it seems it is your Peter but to me [!?] it rather looks like we might perhaps be getting somewhere.

So to clarify for me at least ... Are you now suggesting the "Mrs PHILLIPS, Guardian" of Thornton [Guardian - seemingly likely of a young child] could be/was Mrs Sarah Ann PHILLIPS of Thornton/mother of Minnie BURNS, nee PHILLIPS [who is the mother of a young William/William Edward BURNS born c.1907/8] rather than Minnie herself?

Further observing and thus also potentially speculating ...

A separated wife could/would not get a Separation Allowance or a pension for herself because of her separated status but could still claim a SA and pension allowance for any child(ren) = ???

And/or as a still young woman perhaps Minnie decided to revert to her maiden name to avoid the notoriety of her late husband's fate [and possibly also going by the name of "Marion" as earlier mentioned in TMWSN ??] and handed care of her young son to her mother so as to help pursue a further life for herself?? = ???

Or she had perhaps died so her son went to his grandmother?? = ???

Are those anything near possible?

M

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

So to clarify for me at least ... Are you now suggesting the "Mrs PHILLIPS, Guardian" of Thornton [Guardian - seemingly likely of a young child] could be/was Mrs Sarah Ann PHILLIPS of Thornton/mother of Minnie BURNS, nee PHILLIPS [who is the mother of a young William/William Edward BURNS born c.1907/8] rather than Minnie herself?

Pretty much that's it.

Speculation but as Minnie Burns was back at work on the 1911 Census of England & Wales and living with her mothers there must be a strong likelihood she was then estranged from her husband. We can only presume that he was providing for his son William based on the possibility that a Separation Allowance was in payment, but would that imply the financial support was there previously or would the authorities just assume that?

There isn't a likely candidate for the death of a Minnie Burns \ Phillips in England & Wales between the 1911 & 1921 Censuses, but of course she could have been using a different name. Speculation again but the fact that the CWGC don't list her but give the parents details might imply she was never on Williams service records as next of kin - although she may also have repointed the authorities to the parents, wanting to no longer be associated with her husbands name.

So whatever caused it, I believe Minnie and Williams' son, William Edward, was being brought up by his maternal grandmother and maiden aunt by the time of the 1921 Census. Minnie may simply have been absent from the household on the night of the census or may have started a new life for herself, one in which her son couldn't be part. Given the Q1 1908 birth registration any claim to a pension on his behalf would almost certainly have ended by late 1923 \ early 1924. Might that partially explain the paucity of details on the Ministry of Pensions cards?

Cheers,
Peter