Military Medals awarded at 3rd Ypres Battle of Pilckem Ridge

[jonbowen]

Does any have any suggestions as how I can locate a list of Military Medals awarded to soldiers for their involvement in 3rd Ypres between July 31st and August 4th 1917.

 

Thanks in advance

[jonbem]

Hi

I would suggest that if you know the name and number of a couple of soldiers then see if they are in the same edition of the Gazette. Then you might find others in the same issue.

regards

Jon

[PRC]

4 hours ago, jonbowen said:

Does any have any suggestions as how I can locate a list of Military Medals awarded to soldiers for their involvement in 3rd Ypres between July 31st and August 4th 1917.

I suspect there is no such thing. While men were put forward by their unit commanding officer, they had to go up the chain, which would have been proceeded at different paces for units controlled at the Division \ Corps \ Army levels. There are schedules relating to the award of Military Medals and a great deal of work has been done over the years to tie schedules back to likely periods they cover - @Ivor Anderson can speak with a great deal more authority on that than I can. But the schedules by themselves are unlikely to give you 100% coverage. Add into that that the citations haven't survived and I imagine it would be impossible to be sure to know for certain in many cases whether the award related to those specific five days.

I'm assuming this hasn't come about through idle curiosity, so it may be better to tell us what prompted you to ask as there may be a very specific answer - for an individual or unit - that doesn't have to factor in all the variables.

Cheers,
Peter

[Ivor Anderson]

13 hours ago, jonbowen said:

list of Military Medals awarded to soldiers for their involvement in 3rd Ypres between July 31st and August 4th 1917

As Peter has said we cannot know exactly. Bate & Williamson place the London Gazette of 28 Sept 1917 as including the period you seek,

but it also covers July 1917, and several other war theatres. If you know the divisions involved it will help you locate men from those units in that LG issue.

There may then be MM lists in those divisional A&QMG war diaries. Do you have a particular soldier/unit in mind?

LG 28 Sept 1917 (9th supplement - no. 30312): https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30312/supplement/10019

Edited 19 March , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Given the scale of the action you are looking at a very big haystack. This article mentions the British 5th & 2nd armies being involved.

It also mentions some Corps (e.g. XVIII & XIX) & Divisions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pilckem_Ridge

Edited 19 March , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[jonbowen]

Thanks everyone for your replies. The reason for my question is that the battle is my area of interest due to losing a couple of family members during that action. Having built up a collection or trios, pairs and memorial plaques spanning the battalions who were involved I have managed to pick up a small number of MMs that I can say with certainty relate to the action and as interested in extending that part of my collection.

However I have come across a couple of MMs being attributed to Pilckem Ridge where the date in the LG is well into October 1917. As PRC have said war diaries don't always mention the award or citation may not have survived so was wondering whether there was any way of narrowing down. There have been a couple of occasions  when questioned about the provenance of the claim the answer tends to be because the battalion fought in the action.

[Ivor Anderson]

1 hour ago, jonbowen said:

I have come across a couple of MMs being attributed to Pilckem Ridge where the date in the LG is well into October 1917.

 It sometimes happens that MM recommendation lists include e.g. an incorrect service number or surname spelling that delays the ratification of the award & its LG listing.

 It is likely that there would be multiple MMs to the same unit for such a significant action, and that they will have consecutive MM schedule numbers.

 If one diary from a unit in e.g. the same Division attributes MMs to that particular action, then the other units with MMs in the same LG are likely for the same action.

The schedule numbers should be close. Obviously linking at least one of the unit's MM to the Battle helps.   Have you a particular unit in mind?

Edited 21 March , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[Ian Riley]

If the involvement is with the 55th (West Lancashire) Division (I notice that you have a connection with the North West of England) many of the division's citations (including MMs) survive the divisional commander's papers at the Liverpool Record Office. (Major General HS Jeudwine). The division was in action from 31st July near Wieltje

[jonbowen]

19 hours ago, Ian Riley said:

If the involvement is with the 55th (West Lancashire) Division (I notice that you have a connection with the North West of England) many of the division's citations (including MMs) survive the divisional commander's papers at the Liverpool Record Office. (Major General HS Jeudwine). The division was in action from 31st July near Wieltje

Thanks Ian, yes based in the North West however from Wales originally, still something I will look into. How easy is access ?

 

[jonbowen]

21 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

 It sometimes happens that MM recommendation lists include e.g. an incorrect service number or surname spelling that delays the ratification of the award & its LG listing.

 It is likely that there would be multiple MMs to the same unit for such a significant action, and that they will have consecutive MM schedule numbers.

 If one diary from a unit in e.g. the same Division attributes MMs to that particular action, then the other units with MMs in the same LG are likely for the same action.

The schedule numbers should be close. Obviously linking at least one of the unit's MM to the Battle helps.   Have you a particular unit in mind?

Thanks Ivor

The 38th (Welsh) Division  is of specific interest and Lancashire and Manchester Regiments. You mention in the post the books by Bate & Williamson lists schedule numbers by dates. Would you be kind enough to confirm which book is it BRITISH LINE REGIMENTS DCM and MM Awards 1914-1920 (Volume V) of another reference book.

[Ivor Anderson]

1 hour ago, jonbowen said:

Would you be kind enough to confirm which book is it BRITISH LINE REGIMENTS DCM and MM Awards 1914-1920 (Volume V) of another reference book.

"The Annotations Found on the Reverses of the Military Medal Index Cards 1916 to 1920" (MM Project vol. III).

It's schedule nos. ranges & date ranges by gazette in the early part of the volume.

Edited 22 March , 2023 by Ivor Anderson

[PRC]

On 18/03/2023 at 18:33, jonbowen said:

Does any have any suggestions as how I can locate a list of Military Medals awarded to soldiers for their involvement in 3rd Ypres between July 31st and August 4th 1917.

One of the Infantry Battalions that took part in this battle was the 8^th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, then serving in the 53^rd Brigade of the 18^th Battalion.

After taking part in the attack on the 31^st July they were moved back into support in the early hours of the 1^st August.

They were next in action between the 11^th and 17^th August 1917.

An appendix to the September 1917 War Diary lists recents gallantry awards, and breaks it down into those awarded for the 31^st July 1917, and then those awarded for the period 11-17^th August.

31^st July 1917  1 x Military Cross, 1 x D.C.M., and 3 x Military Medals.

The Military Medal winners were:-

43435 Lance Corporal A.E. Bradfield.

·       Serjeant 43435 Alan Edwin Bradfield subsequently commissioned September 1918. (MiC). Award Bar to MM, London Gazette, 23.2.18.
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 18.10.17. Schedule Number is 105279. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6136032
·       Page 10716 Supplement to the London Gazette 18 October 1917. (Norwich) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30340/supplement/10716/data.pdf

43630 Private H. Graver

·       Henry G.Graver (MiC) Henry George Graver (Medal Roll).
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 18.10.17. Schedule Number is 105279. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6165965
·       Page 10720 Supplement to the London Gazette 18 October 1917. (Fakenham). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30340/supplement/10716/data.pdf

13572 Lance Corporal A. Purkiss.

·       Private Albert Purkiss landed in France with the 8^th Battalion on the 25^th July 1915. Subsequently served with the Tank Corps, (309182) – MiC.
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 18.10.17. I think the Schedule Number is 105278. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6209951
·       Page 10726 Supplement to the London Gazette 18 October 1917. (Bow) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30340/supplement/10726/data.pdf

11^th August 1917 to 17^th August 1917. 4 x Military Cross, 1 x D.C.M., 1 Bar to Military Medal and 6 x Military Medals.

Bar to Military Medal went to:-

43530 Sergeant T. Wentford

·       Thomas Wentford, subsequently commissioned, previously 1190 TF Norfolk Regiment. (MiC)
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 19.11.17. Schedule Number is unclear. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6292260
·       Page 11960 Supplement to the London Gazette 19 November 1917. (Attleborough). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11960/data.pdf

Military Medals went to:-

15149 Lance Corporal R. Howard.

·       R. Howard subsequently 43970 Essex Regiment (MiC) Essex Regiment only show forename initials. (Medal Roll).
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 19.11.17. Schedule Number is 109933. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6176023
·       Page 11967 Supplement to the London Gazette 19 November 1917. (Norwich). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11967/data.pdf

13286 Private W. Theobald.

·       Walter Theobald, went to France with the 8^th Battalion landing 25.7.15. Discharged 2.11.18 (MiC).
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 19.11.17. Schedule Number is 109932. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6284408
·       Page 11973 Supplement to the London Gazette 19 November 1917. (Stoke Ferry). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11973/data.pdf

17360 Private B. Leveritt

·       Benjamin E. LEVERETT (MiC) Benjamin Elijah Leverett (Medal Roll).
·       MM card at the National Archive as Benj. E. EVERETT shows London Gazette 19.11.17. Schedule Number is initially 109931 but card crossed through with Schedule 240227 noted. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6186550
·       Page 11968 Supplement to the London Gazette 19 November 1917 as LEVERETT. (Long Stratton). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11968/data.pdf

22907 Private W. Woodcock

·       ???? (MiC) 23907 William Woodcock (Medal Roll).
·       MM card as 23907 W. Woodcock at the National Archive shows London Gazette 19.11.17. Schedule Number is 109934. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6296580
·       Page 11974 Supplement to the London Gazette 19 November 1917. (Horstead). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11974/data.pdf

13726 Sergeant O.H. Bear

·       Oliver H. Bear, went to France with the 8^th Battalion landing 25.7.15.(MiC) Oliver Henry Bear (Medal Roll). Killed in Action 22.10.17 (SDGW).
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 19.11.17. Schedule Number is 109930. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6131305
·       Page 11962 Supplement to the London Gazette 19 November 1917. (Ipswich). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11962/data.pdf

13209 Lance Corporal D. Scales.

·       Donald Scales, went to France with the 8^th Battalion landing 25.7.15.(MiC)
·       MM card at the National Archive shows London Gazette 19.11.17. Schedule Number is 109931. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6216901
·       Page 11972 Supplement to the London Gazette 19 November 1917. (Norwich). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30389/supplement/11972/data.pdf

I’ve only checked out the watermarked versions of the MM cards so that information could do with verifying.

I can’t tell if the Norfolk Regiment was an outlier but from the three MM’s awarded for the 31^st July 1917 that would tend to point to the London Gazette Supplement of the 18^th October 1917 as being focused on the opening days of Passchendaele.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 23 March , 2023 by PRC
Typos and add correct link

[FlersChampagne]

To put this into context - As part of the ongoing MM project, I have 617 MMs known so far that are for the 31.7.17 and this is just scratching the surface. The difficulty as everyone has said is that these awards are in a wide range of gazettes. So far listed in the following gazettes:
17.9.17
28.9.17
18.10.17
2.11.17
19.11.17
12.12.17
11.2.19
3.7.19

A lot of MM cards are marked HO - Held over and relate to recipients whose award was held up to check the qualified or were dead amongst other things. The giveaway is that although they appear in later gazettes - their schedule number falls into the right block for an earlier gazette.
If you have an MM in the schedule number range 101,025 to 107,001 its almost definitely on or about 31.7.17. This would suggest nearly 6000 awards for the period around the 31st July.

Hope this helps 

 Chris & Howard

[John(txic)]

Jon,

 

 

A circuitous route may be via the local press.  Those men awarded the MM and DCM in Dudley were celebrated in a civic function - some whilst the war was still in progress - where they were awarded a gold watch by the Patriotic Committee.  The newspaper reports usually printed the citation for the medal.  

[jonbowen]

22 hours ago, FlersChampagne said:

To put this into context - As part of the ongoing MM project, I have 617 MMs known so far that are for the 31.7.17 and this is just scratching the surface. The difficulty as everyone has said is that these awards are in a wide range of gazettes. So far listed in the following gazettes:
17.9.17
28.9.17
18.10.17
2.11.17
19.11.17
12.12.17
11.2.19
3.7.19

A lot of MM cards are marked HO - Held over and relate to recipients whose award was held up to check the qualified or were dead amongst other things. The giveaway is that although they appear in later gazettes - their schedule number falls into the right block for an earlier gazette.
If you have an MM in the schedule number range 101,025 to 107,001 its almost definitely on or about 31.7.17. This would suggest nearly 6000 awards for the period around the 31st July.

Hope this helps 

 Chris & Howard

Thanks both for this... the insight is really helping me piece together a picture of where I can at least get some level of comfort that the medals are 'potentially' or 'likely' to be from Pilckem Ridge. 

[jonbowen]

Thanks all for your responses to date. I knew it wouldn't be straight forward, however the responses  so far are certainly helping me get a picture of where to look to get some level of reassurance.

[Ken Lees]

On 22/03/2023 at 19:57, jonbowen said:

Thanks Ian, yes based in the North West however from Wales originally, still something I will look into. How easy is access ?

 

I have copies if you require any look-ups.

Feel free to send me a message as I'm likely to miss responses on here.

Ken