George Arthur Roberts. National Fire Service.

[high wood]

I am seeing more and more reference to this man on the television in recent months, he is mentioned regularly in advertisements for Ancestry, and was mentioned again in a programme called Secrets of the Imperial War Museum.

It would appear that he served with the Middlesex Regiment during the Great War. I have managed to find an article about him in the Southwark News, dated 30th July 2015, which appeared on the forum some time back. The article is poorly researched and badly written and I thought that I would attempt to pick some of the bones out of the article and establish a few facts.

Here is the article, cut and pasted, in its original form.

A young soldier who earned the nickname the ?Coconut Bomber? in the First World War went on to spend the next war fighting fires in Southwark.

Sergeant George Arthur Roberts is the first contender for this year?s Southwark Blue Plaque award for his contribution to the borough at a time of great change and turmoil.

George was born in 1890 on the Caribbean island of Trinidad and enrolled in the Trinidad Army as a youngster. In those peaceful days there was not much excitement to be had on the tropical island for a young man ready for battle. So when the war began, the enthusiastic young volunteer signed up to the European Service and worked his way to England, where he was placed in the Middlesex Regiment. After fourteen months of training, George was shipped off to France and the action he had craved back in Trinidad would soon be upon him.

A clipping from the Every Week magazine in 1918 says he did ?splendid service? in the Dardanelles and served in many ?severe engagements? in those torrid months as he was injured in both the battle of Loos and the Somme. He earned his nickname as the Coconut Bomber because he could throw bombs like he used to throw coconuts as a child ? at least that is what was reported by the Every Week. ??he showed great proficiency as a Battalion Bomber, being able to throw his bomb a distance of 74 yards. This extraordinary throw was largely the result of his youthful experience in bringing down coconuts from the palms in his native island,? read the article.

He was taken back to visit Trinidad in 1921 and 1935 to help recruit others to the war effort. He is said to have given ?vigorous speeches on behalf of his adopted country?, which were so rousing that 250 men signed up immediately.

After the First World War, George settled at 84 Meeting House Lane in Peckham. When he met his first wife, Margaret in 1920, they moved to 40 Bournemouth Road before settling in the Lewis Trust Dwellings in Warner Road, Camberwell and this remained Georges home until he died in January, 1970. Not a man to shy away from danger, as the Second World War began, George signed up to the National Fire Service. In 1943 the former electrical engineer was made a section leader and in 1944 he was awarded a British Empire Medal for ?general duties at New Cross Fire Station and for his part as a founder and pioneer of the Discussion and Education groups of the Fire Service throughout the Second World War.?

These voluntary talking shops were a part of a national move to try and prevent a repetition of a ?sleepwalk? to war and a fascist state through open debate. London firemen like George led the way as 15,000 men and women would go to meetings at their local station houses every week and hear speakers on any given topic from what to do with Germany after the war, to hobbies and books. ?If what I am doing can assist in some small way to bring about a better understanding and a true fellowship amongst the peoples of the earth, I shall be extremely happy,? George said in a BBC interview for a programme called ?Calling the West Indies? recorded in 1947. In the same interview George was asked if he ever considered returning to his home to Trinidad. ?As much as I hate the cold and fog of winter, fuel cuts, food rationing and the prospect of very difficult times further ahead, I feel I shall be happier here with my family. But I hope to see the West Indies again. ?Memories of the grand reception I had on my two short visits in 1921 and again in 1935 linger on. Cheerio West Indies. I am always with you in spirit, and I hope to visit you soon,? he said.

George and Margaret had two sons. Cyril was born in 1921 and Victor the following year. Both boys joined up to serve in the Second World War and Cyril?s regiment was captured in France before Dunkirk. He remained a Prisoner of War in Germany?s Stalag 383 until 1944. Victor served with the Royal Artillery. Local historian, Stephen Bourne, who nominated George Roberts for the Southwark Blue Plaque, has spent years researching who he calls a ?forgotten Camberwell hero.? ?He was a Trinidadian from the old British Empire. Britain would have been his mother country. He came to serve in the First World War, which is commendable, but then remained here and had a family here,? said Stephen, who notes that George also represented the British Legion from the 1920s and was a founder member of the League of Coloured Peoples in 1931. ?He continued with that sense of responsibility to the wider community.

In the Second World War he then becomes a fireman and serves Londoners in very dangerous circumstances,? said Stephen. ?He?s always been a forgotten figure but he was connected to all these organisations and received the British Empire Medal so he was clearly recognised at the time but as time has passed he?s been forgotten.? George was indeed so noted for his work at the time that he was painted by famous portrait artist, Norman Hepple, which featured in a war time journal. Sadly the whereabouts of the original painting is now unknown but the vision of a brave man who tried to create a better world lives on.

To vote for the blue plaque you can email news@www.newsatden.co.uk, write to Southwark Blue Plaques, C/O Southwark Heritage Association, 216 Upland Road, East Dulwich, SE22 0DH, fill in a voting card at any Southwark library or vote online.

[high wood]

As you can see it makes various claims about his Great War military service which should be verifiable.

The original article mentioned in the Southwark news article, which was taken from the Every week magazine and purportedly dates from 1918, is a little clearer.

"Cpl. George Arthur Roberts was engaged prior to the war on the Regimental Staff in his native Trinidad. On the outbreak of war he volunteered for European service and worked his passage to England.

Attached to the Middlesex Regiment, he showed great proficiency as a battalion bomber, being able to throw a greanade 74 yards. This extraordinary throw was largely the result of his youthful experience in bringing down coconuts from the palms in his native island.

After doing splendid service in the Dardenelles, he served 14 months in France, going through many severe engagements and wounded first at Loos, and in the Somme. He returned to Trinidad on special leave, and there helped to recruit more than 250 men by his vigourous speeches on behalf of his adopted country.

[high wood]

Given the above, I need to find a soldier called George Arthur Roberts, who having served before the Great War in his native Trinidad, volunteered to serve in the European theatre and was "attached" to the Middlesex Regiment. He must also have served in the Dardenelles, been wounded at Loos, (not necessarily at the Battle of Loos), and in the Somme.

There are medal index cards for eight George Roberts who served in the Middlesex Regiment but only one George A Roberts. This soldier served with the 2/10th battalion and had the regimental numbers, 5445 and 292351. He has no entitlement to the 1914/14 Star shown on the card and I cannot find a second card. The 2/10th battalion, Middlesex Regiment were indeed in the Dardenelles, having landed at Sulva Bay on the 8th August 1915, they spent the rest of the war in the Middle East.

 

There is a medal index card for a second George A Roberts who served with the British West Indies Regiment.

 

[high wood]

I have also found a reference on a sick list to a G. A. Roberts with the regimental number 20443, serving with the 1/Middlesex Regiment.  I can find no trace of a Medal index card for him.

[busterfield]

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/7672334

in the evidence section has entries from "national roll of the great war" on FMP.

[PRC]

The very likely self-penned and certainly unverified entry in the commercial publication National Roll of Honour.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Cheers,
Peter

[high wood]

Thank you for the link. The photograph would confirm his role as a bomber, and also shows four overseas chevrons, so I would expect a 1914/15 Star on his Medal Index Card. No mention of his regimental number either.

[high wood]

The National Roll of Honour is even more confusing, it suggests a pre war regular or reservist, and claims that he volunteered for the first Expeditionary Force, no mention of the Dardenelles either.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by high wood

[Matlock1418]

54 minutes ago, high wood said:

There is a medal index card for a second George A Roberts who served with the British West Indies Regiment.

46 minutes ago, high wood said:

I have also found a reference on a sick list to a G. A. Roberts with the regimental number 20443, serving with the 1/Middlesex Regiment.  I can find no trace of a Medal index card for him.

This Pension Index Card seems to offer a link - and a Peckham address

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

M

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
peckham

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, high wood said:

Thank you for the link. The photograph would confirm his role as a bomber, and also shows four overseas chevrons,

Certainly four O/S chevrons clearly showing [wrongly attributed on LOTFWW as "wound stripes" I reckon - but one or more possibly part visible on his left arm]

M

[PRC]

First sign I’m seeing of him in the English and Welsh civil records is the 1921 Census of England & Wales, as George Arthur Roberts, born Trinidad c1891, and living in a household in Camberwell with a Margaret Irene Roberts, born Streatham c1896 and a Cyril Desiree Roberts, born Peckham c1921.

There may well be more details  on the actual census return – the address might help tie in to some of the addresses identified.

The birth of a Cyril Desiree Roberts, mothers’ maiden name Whyland, was registered with the civil authorities in the Camberwell District in Q1 1921.

The marriage of a George A Roberts to a Margaret I Whyland was registered in the Camberwell District in Q1 1920.

I can see records of a 28 year old G.A. Roberts who sailed from London on the 22^nd December 1917 aboard the Spheroid, bound for Trinidad. https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:68GP-7F7H

A 56 year old George Arthur Roberts, occupation Clerk, sailed from Liverpool on the 5^th November 1947 bound for Trinidad. https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:68PN-68HB

But struggling to find a match on the outbound passengers lists for 1921 and 1935.

If someone with access to the 1939 Register on FindMyPast or Ancestry could check out the scan of the actual page, it would be interesting to know what is shown in the first column of the facing page – that information is never transcribed. At the time the register was taken it was deliberately left blank, (as shown in the column header), but seems subsequently to have been used to note civil defence roles.

Cheers,
Peter

[high wood]

Peter, many thanks for your help with this, it is appreciated. This might be his 1939 Register entry, he is now a widower. I have found a death registration for a Margaret I Roberts, age 41, in the September quarter of 1937. The death was registered in Lambeth.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by high wood

[high wood]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

This Pension Index Card seems to offer a link - and a Peckham address

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

M

That is really useful as it links two separate documents together. I am not sure what the crossed out number at the top (189495) represents. I cannot find a matching MIC for the Army Service Corps numbers but will continue to look. Many thanks for your efforts.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by high wood

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, high wood said:

I am not sure what the top crossed out number at the top (189495) represents.

My first thought was that it was a Rej No [Rejection Number - as that was where such a number would commonly be placed in case of a rejected claim] - but clearly struck through.

Next to/above it we appear to see a note which to me rather suggests the pension was transferred abroad ?? Certainly there is an MoP O/S reference number of 22871/OS/M - possibly c. 1927.

I wonder if @ss002d6252 is perhaps able to offer any further/better insight ??

M

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Matlock1418

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, high wood said:

Peter, many thanks for your help with this, it is appreciated. This might be his 1939 Register entry, he is now a widower.

Showing Auxiliary Fire Service No. 7562 rather than him being a National Fire Service man.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, high wood said:

That is really useful as it links two separate documents together. I am not sure what the crossed out number at the top (189495) represents. I cannot find a matching MIC for the Army Service Corps numbers but will continue to look. Many thanks for your efforts.

In one of your early posts in the thread you say that “George Arthur Roberts, who having served before the Great War in his native Trinidad, volunteered to serve in the European theatre and was "attached" to the Middlesex Regiment.”

Then later on there are two MICs, one for a man West Indies Regiment, and one for Middlesex Regiment, plus subsequently a Pension Card that mentions the two regiments plus the ASC.

It certainly seems to me that the two MICs are probably/possibly the same man and also linked with the pension.  Has this seeming linkage already been accepted?

NB.  It may just be a coincidence, but the ASC were at that time responsible for the Army’s in house fire service (incidentally born in Aldershot, which was the HQ and depot) and the corps ran the Army’s fire prevention and fire fighting training for all arms (encampment and barracks precautions etc).

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[high wood]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

In one of your early posts in the thread you say that “George Arthur Roberts, who having served before the Great War in his native Trinidad, volunteered to serve in the European theatre and was "attached" to the Middlesex Regiment.”

Then later on there are two MICs, one for a man West Indies Regiment, and one for Middlesex Regiment, plus subsequently a Pension Card that mentions the two regiments plus the ASC.

It certainly seems to me that the two MICs are probably/possibly the same man and also linked with the pension.  Has this seeming linkage already been accepted?

NB.  It may just be a coincidence, but the ASC were at that time responsible for the Army’s in house fire service and the corps ran the Army’s fire prevention and fire fighting training for all arms (encampment and barracks precautions etc).

My third post was a summary of my second post which was a transcription of a 1918 newspaper article that stated that he was attached to the Middlesex Regiment. That same article had been severely misinterpretated in the Southwark News article which appears in my first post. Confused? I certainly am. Further confusion brought about by the clearly impossible scenario in the National Role of Honour entry if the George Arthur Roberts mentioned in it is the same person who served in the British West Indies Regiment.

[high wood]

A further snippet from a newspaper article entitled Empire Day today taken from The Scotsman, 24th May 1943.

Mr George Arthur Roberts, of the National Fire Service, born and brought up in Trinidad was the first coloured sergeant in an English regiment. He fought in the last war, married an English girl, and settled down in London. He said, "what we people of the empire need above all is to know each other better".

Edited 17 March , 2023 by high wood
Correcting typos.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, high wood said:

My third post was a summary of my second post which was a transcription of a 1918 newspaper article that stated that he was attached to the Middlesex Regiment. That same article had been severely misinterpretated in the Southwark News article which appears in my first post. Confused? I certainly am. Further confusion brought about by the clearly impossible scenario in the National Role of Honour entry if the George Arthur Roberts mentioned in it is the same person who served in the British West Indies Regiment.

I see, thank you.  Certainly a conundrum of some depth then if the wheat has never yet been sorted from the chaff.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[high wood]

52 minutes ago, PRC said:

Showing Auxiliary Fire Service No. 7562 rather than him being a National Fire Service man.

Cheers,
Peter

The National Fire Service claim comes from the Southwark News article. All the photographs and the painting of him in Fire Service uniform show him to be wearing an Auxilliary Fire Service badge,

Edited 17 March , 2023 by high wood

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

My first thought was that it was a Rej No [Rejection Number - as that was where such a number would commonly be placed in case of a rejected claim] - but clearly struck through.

Next to/above it we appear to see a note which to me rather suggests the pension was transferred abroad ?? Certainly there is an MoP O/S reference number of 22871/OS/M - possibly c. 1927.

I wonder if @ss002d6252 is perhaps able to offer any further/better insight ??

M

The rejection numbers are usually stamped.

I wonder if it's actually Reg for registry number, or Reg for regimental number (and written in the wrong place, as well as the wrong number).

Craig

[MerchantOldSalt]

2 hours ago, high wood said:

The National Fire Service claim comes from the Southwark News article. All the photographs and the painting of him in Fire Service uniform show him to be wearing an Auxilliary Fire Service badge,

The Auxiliary Fire Service was formed in 1938 to supplement the fire fighting efforts of the County Fire Brigades, however in August 1941 the AFS and County Brigades were amalgamated into the National Fire Service so though he may have started the war in the Auxiliary Fire Service he would have ended it in the National Fire Service.  The AFS was reformed after the war in 1948 and finally disbanded in 1968.

Tony

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

The rejection numbers are usually stamped.

I wonder if it's actually Reg for registry number, or Reg for regimental number (and written in the wrong place, as well as the wrong number).

Agreed rejection numbers do most often seem stamped, but ... ???

And yet the alternatives are unhelpfully equally elusive.  Hey ho!

M

[Toontraveller]

Stephen Bourne who is mentioned in the article is a well known local historian around Southwark and was the author of a book “ Black Poppies - Britains Black community and the Great War “ published around 2014. He has researched and published quite a few local historical incidents around Southwark area so not surprised he has researched George Roberts. I went to a presentation / reading of his book when it first came out. 

[PRC]

45 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

The Auxiliary Fire Service was formed in 1938 to supplement the fire fighting efforts of the County Fire Brigades, however in August 1941 the AFS and County Brigades were amalgamated into the National Fire Service so though he may have started the war in the Auxiliary Fire Service he would have ended it in the National Fire Service.  The AFS was reformed after the war in 1948 and finally disbanded in 1968.

The familys' own website has Auxiliary Fire Service, but says the painting, which shows him wearing the badge of the AFS, has a date of July 1941, so plenty of scope for confusion as a result of timing. (As if we needed anymore!) https://www.georgearthurroberts.com/

Certainly his entry in the London Gazette in the 1944 Kings Birthday honours, (Page 2680, Supplement 10 June 1944), shows him as National Fire Service. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36547/supplement/2680

Cheers,
Peter