SteveKuriyets Posted 26 February , 2023 Share Posted 26 February , 2023 Good day everyone I hope you are all keeping well! I'm new here and am so thankful for what looks like a wealth of info, so thank you to all! I'm in search of more specific information regarding trench names and locations. The 1st Bn. 3rd N.Z.R.B took up position (relieving the 29th Bn. 8th Brigade Australian Infantry Force) on July 14/15 1916 in trench location between "36.I.31.C.5.4 and 36.I.26.C.2 1/2.2" according to their war diary. It says specifically about this location "which takes us in Trenches 48, 49, 50, 51, and 52." My question is, if at all possible, how do I determine the precise location of "Trench 52"? Aside from tmapper and the trench maps we can access online are there any other available sources that gives greater detail into location of specific trenches?? I notice some names are labelled on these maps while most others are not. If I can nail down "Trench 52" I can pinpoint the exact location my wife's great grandfather was injured (requiring about a ten month recovery before he returned) which would be pretty cool. Thanks again! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 26 February , 2023 Admin Share Posted 26 February , 2023 Welcome to the forum. Hopefully, @WhiteStarLine will be along to assist you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 26 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2023 Thanks for the welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 26 February , 2023 Admin Share Posted 26 February , 2023 I think I may have found it. On image 7 https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-action-of-bois-grenier-25-september-1915/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 26 February , 2023 Admin Share Posted 26 February , 2023 Image courtesy of the Long Long Trail website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 26 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2023 Oh wow!!! So I can nail it down when compared to this closeup on the larger area map!!! Just have to rotate yours 180 and line it up!! Amazing!!! Thank you so much this is just amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 26 February , 2023 Share Posted 26 February , 2023 1 hour ago, SteveKuriyets said: Good day everyone I hope you are all keeping well! I'm new here and am so thankful for what looks like a wealth of info, so thank you to all! I'm in search of more specific information regarding trench names and locations. The 1st Bn. 3rd N.Z.R.B took up position (relieving the 29th Bn. 8th Brigade Australian Infantry Force) on July 14/15 1916 in trench location between "36.I.31.C.5.4 and 36.I.26.C.2 1/2.2" according to their war diary. It says specifically about this location "which takes us in Trenches 48, 49, 50, 51, and 52." My question is, if at all possible, how do I determine the precise location of "Trench 52"? Aside from tmapper and the trench maps we can access online are there any other available sources that gives greater detail into location of specific trenches?? I notice some names are labelled on these maps while most others are not. If I can nail down "Trench 52" I can pinpoint the exact location my wife's great grandfather was injured (requiring about a ten month recovery before he returned) which would be pretty cool. Thanks again! Steve Steve, welcome. By far the largest and most comprehensive Great War mapping resource anywhere is called TrenchMapper. After many thousands of hours work by a group of volunteers, we have almost 6,500 maps, soon to be 8,000 along with a trench name search with 30,000 points, soon to be far far more. In the left panel you can enter your map reference, 36.I.31.C.5.4 and it will offer you 382 maps of various scales, selectable from the download bottom left. There are many tools on offer, have a look at the Help menu and see some of the videos on offer and text based help, e.g. you can go to Street View direct from a trench, measure distance and bearing between points, fade the map to different modern maps or imagery etc. etc. In the Help->Knowledge Centre are pages to help interpret the British Map reference system and other articles. It is worth looking at a range of maps, some have hand annotations, unit locations etc. especially as so often that Murphy’s Law strikes and the point of interest is on the edge of a map sheet (like yours!). Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 27 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2023 Thanks Howard and this gives me a little more insight into Trench Mapper which I now understand is different from TMapper! Just took a gander and WOW!!!! No kidding about the sheer amount of opportunity to explore deeply and get as specific as possible!! Really thank you both again for your help it is greatly appreciated, and being able to narrow down this location of Trench 52 has been the highlight of my weekend! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 27 February , 2023 Share Posted 27 February , 2023 Hi Steve and a warm welcome too. The area is of great interest to me too as two of mine died in the area in 1917. There are a lot of photographs of the area in 1915 held by the Imperial War Museum; I searched just on Flamengrie and this is the result. I have quite a few of the area as it is today, but unfortunately nothing that exactly fits with trench 52. The area is very flat and the watertable is very close to the surface which meant the first trenches flooded very quickly. As a result both sides quickly threw up breastworks above ground level to stay dry or at least drier. If you are interested in any photos of the general area as it is today let me know. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 28 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2023 Hey Pete and thanks! I'd absolutely be happy to see some pics of the area in the present day! Still really cool to look at and imagine just what went down in each square foot what is now no doubt farmland. An incredible sacrifice paid for in some cases no gain. Sad no matter what way we slice it. But, amazing that we have the history to explore, discover and honour those who were involved. Do you want an email address to send any photos?? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 28 February , 2023 Share Posted 28 February , 2023 5 minutes ago, SteveKuriyets said: Hey Pete and thanks! I'd absolutely be happy to see some pics of the area in the present day! Still really cool to look at and imagine just what went down in each square foot what is now no doubt farmland. An incredible sacrifice paid for in some cases no gain. Sad no matter what way we slice it. But, amazing that we have the history to explore, discover and honour those who were involved. Do you want an email address to send any photos?? Steve You can go some way towards that in TrenchMapper. Right click on a point on a trench maps and choose Street View. It does not of course work in the middle of a field but it helps. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 28 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2023 Awesome thanks Howard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 28 February , 2023 Admin Share Posted 28 February , 2023 Unfortunately, Bois Grenier is quite changed, I’ve seen it the 38 years I’ve been going over. The TGV line runs close by and there are a lot of industrial estates as well. There’s a huge power station near Grand Flamengerie Farm. This is the area today on an IGN map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 28 February , 2023 Share Posted 28 February , 2023 This is from the modern day IGN 2404 E Armentieres 1 : 25 000 49 West Riding Div arrived in France in April 1915 and were attached to 8 Div in that area. The HQ and IB WDs refer to Trench Sections 1,2,3,4,5 and 6. There are three maps in the May 1915 Div HQ WDs, WO 95/2765, which show these Sections to the right of the Bois Grenier to Ft Bridoux road whereas the 8 Div map posted by Michelle above shows Trench 52 to the left. I can not to find a 1915 map or sketch in any detail. There is a large scale map in the April 1915 WD of 7 Div HQ GS. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 28 February , 2023 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2023 Thanks Brian and Michelle! Seems easy enough to place trench 52 on this modern map based on the one you sent Michelle. Here's another question that may sound silly. Where do the trenches stop and another ones starts, as in the boundary between 51, 52, 53,. etc?? Is it the lines with arrows every so often along the front trench line that I've pointed out below? Brian why would trenches changes numbers? Am I understanding what you said correctly? or do you mean they have a trenches 1. 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 running from Bois Grenier to le Bridoux with trench 52 running between the water farm and la grand flamengerie?? Help me understand what you're saying exactly? Also are the maps you referenced on TrenchMapper also or only at division archives? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 28 February , 2023 Share Posted 28 February , 2023 The best way to understand trench naming schemes is to read Rats Alley. As always, it depends on where, when and who named them, it was only later in the war that more official naming schemes were adopted. I hope Brian and Michelle don’t get into trouble posting modern copyright maps! Mind you, the Bastille was destroyed in 1789 so they should be OK. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 28 February , 2023 Share Posted 28 February , 2023 (edited) One of the maps I looked at showed 27 Div on the left of 8 Div/49 Div. The WD of 27 Div HQ GS, WO 95/2254, 28/06/1915 records that 19 Infantry Brigade were holding Trenches 49 to 59. The WD of 19 Infantry Brigade of 2 Div (page 1) shows that the Brigade was attached to 6 Div from January to May 1915 and to 27 Div from June to July 1915. The WD is WO 95/1364/1. It is supposed to cover June and July 1915 but it starts August 1915. I have not got 19 IB on my list of 1915 maps under 2 Div, 6 Div or 27 Div, but I have now. EDIT: 1364/1 does have from 1914 it is not in proper order. This map is in the September WD. It shows Trench 52. There is a signature at the bottom right showing an Officer of 1 Middlesex. I like to find a map from a WD of the time which might have some more information. TNA WO 95/1364. Brian Edited 28 February , 2023 by brianmorris547 additional info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 1 March , 2023 Share Posted 1 March , 2023 Steve As you can see on the two above maps from 8 Div and 19 IB the trench numbers to the left of the Bois Grenier to Ft Bridoux road start at number 50. The maps in the June 1915 WD of 49 Div HQ GS show the trenches to the right of the Bois Grenier to Ft Briboux road. They are not numbered but are shown in Sections. Attached is the map of the right of the road showing Sections 5 and 6. Courtesy TNA WO 95/2765. I think the arrows you refer to are to assist bodies of men who were detailed to go to a numbered trench. It was a continuous line I would imagine. Apologies to Michelle for posting the same IGN. This afternoon's reading is the WD of 19 IB. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 1 March , 2023 Share Posted 1 March , 2023 13 hours ago, brianmorris547 said: One of the maps I looked at showed 27 Div on the left of 8 Div/49 Div. The WD of 27 Div HQ GS, WO 95/2254, 28/06/1915 records that 19 Infantry Brigade were holding Trenches 49 to 59. The WD of 19 Infantry Brigade of 2 Div (page 1) shows that the Brigade was attached to 6 Div from January to May 1915 and to 27 Div from June to July 1915. The WD is WO 95/1364/1. It is supposed to cover June and July 1915 but it starts August 1915. I have not got 19 IB on my list of 1915 maps under 2 Div, 6 Div or 27 Div, but I have now. EDIT: 1364/1 does have from 1914 it is not in proper order. This map is in the September WD. It shows Trench 52. There is a signature at the bottom right showing an Officer of 1 Middlesex. I like to find a map from a WD of the time which might have some more information. TNA WO 95/1364. Brian Brian I have WO 95/1364 but cannot see the map signed by the 1st Middlesex officer. Could you plase give me the page ref in WO 95/1364. Thanks Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 1 March , 2023 Share Posted 1 March , 2023 6 hours ago, Howard said: Brian I have WO 95/1364 but cannot see the map signed by the 1st Middlesex officer. Could you plase give me the page ref in WO 95/1364. Thanks Howard Howard The above map is on Ancestry Piece 1364 p 172. I can not make out the name of the Officer. It is in the September 1915 WD with some other sketches but I do not think it relates to September. On p 174 is a sketch made from Trenches 58 and 59 by Capt Welman. There is a Lt N Y L Welman DSO named in the December 1914 WD of 1 Middlesex (WO 95/1365/2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 1 March , 2023 Share Posted 1 March , 2023 Thanks for that. The copy I have came from TNA but sadly does not have that map. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 1 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2023 Well gents based on these messages it looks like I have a lot more research to do to get a handle on abbreviations which will be very helpful as I delve into the trenches Thanks for all of your info, really appreciate it! Happy hunting! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 1 March , 2023 Share Posted 1 March , 2023 Hi Steve Just to follow up with some contemporary photos of the area these are 1. the front line at Le Bridoux fort looking at the German front line from the British front line and 2. La Grand Flamengrie farm as it is today. Trench 58 (or the breastwork raised above the water table) would run behind the viewpoint. In the first photo the ditch has water in it about 2 - 3 feet below the field level showing how close the water table was to the surface. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveKuriyets Posted 2 March , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 March , 2023 Cool photos Pete thank you! Hard to fathom what went down on that land all those years ago! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 2 March , 2023 Share Posted 2 March , 2023 Steve The whole area from Fosse 8 to Armentieres is worthy of study throughout the entire war. It's not an area that I had any particular interest in. I have driven through it on my way from Loos to Ypres, but my family research was The Somme and Bois Hugo, Loos. I hope you do not mind me going off on a tangent in order to assist Howard and Bill with their TM project, and which might be of interest to Pete. When I read the WD of 19 Infantry Brigade yesterday it recorded that on 02/01/1915 the Brigade relieved 16 IB in the trenches between Le Touquet and Rue de Bois. The WD of 16 IB of 6 Div is WO 95/1605. 16 IB was sent to the area in October 1914 as a reserve to 3 Corps. I can not find the October 1914 WD for 6 Div HQ GS. There are three trench maps of the area in the WD of 16 IB (Ancestry Piece 1605 p 92 October, p 106 November and p 115 December 1914). The trenches are not numbered. The WD of 27 Div HQ GS WO 95/2254 (Ancestry Piece 2254 p 820) records that on 28/06/1915: 19 IB Trenches 49 to 59, 81 IB Trenches 60 to 68, 80 IB Trenches 69 to 79 and 82 IB Trenches 80 to 89. We have the map from the WD of 19 IB above so to complete the set the WD of 80 IB WO 95/2260 (Ancestry Piece 2260 p 537, 543 and 549) has maps showing Trenches 74 to 84 on 17/06/1915 p 543 and Trenches 69 to 79 on 26/06/1915 p 549. The map on p 549 has squares marked. There are no maps in the WD of 82 IB WO 95/2265 but the WD of 81 IB WO 95/2263 (Ancestry Piece 2263 p 376) has a map showing Trenches 59 to 73. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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