British & French boundary lines - Somme - 25 September 1916

[Biltea]

Dear members

I'm researching the disposition of forces at the beginning of the  Battle of Morval, 25 September 1916.  The British XIV Corps attacked (on the right of the British troops), together with the French, on the right of the British, on that day. There were four divisions in the XIV Corps (from left to right): Guards, 6th, 5th and 56th. The War Diaries give all the corps/divisional boundaries - apart from one. The missing one is the boundary line between between the 56th Division and the French forces on its right. I've looked at all the relevant WO95 war diaries and maps but can't find any details for this particular line. (I know the line should be somewhere between Bouleaux Wood and Combles, but I would have thought that there was a specific line, complete with grid references, as exists for the other boundaries).

I would be very grateful if there was someone out there who has the answer to this missing link, please. A map or the relevant grid lines would be great.

Thanks - Bill

[Howard]

In TrenchMapper, you might find m_027488 interesting. Although it does not show divisional boundaries it does show the boundary between XIV Corps and the French.

Right click and choose Map ID jump with m_027488.

It will be worth exploring other maps we have. Sadly some have no date because they were not recorded on the map.

Howard

[kenf48]

18 hours ago, Biltea said:

I would be very grateful if there was someone out there who has the answer to this missing link, please. A map or the relevant grid lines would be great.

Does this help?  No grid reference taken from "The Battle of the Somme A topographical History Gerald Glidon and prepared by Historical Section(Military) Ordnance Survey 1938

My guess is for the OH which is online but I've not looked,  Seems it was 169 Brigade that was next to the French have you checked their HQ Diary? The solid black line to the south of Combles would seem to be the line.  Just to the North of Priez Farm  - another hospital pass for @WhiteStarLine my and GWF mapping guru.

(Have to walk my dogs now)

[Howard]

This is from map id m_027488. The meta data that shows for this map gives 1915 but that is the base cartography. It has no other date but context indicates it is correct.

Name: Albert
Sheet: 57D SE & 57C SW & 62D NE & 62C NW
Scale: 1:40,000
Edition: First 1915
Annotated XIV Corps area
Id: m_027488

We have all the OH maps in TrenchMapper, they are near the bottom of the dropdown map list.

Howard

Edited 6 February by Howard

[kenf48]

This is the map in the 169 Brigade HQ Diary for September 1916

 

It is attached to an Op order for the 23rd September  which includes the following:-

There are two sketch maps one of which was sent to the French (and an OP Order in French)

All images courtesy of War Diaries on Ancestry

Turning now  to the attack on Morval on the 25th September it would appear the objectives for the 23rd ,i.e.the attack on Combles Trench and to join up with the French where the Combles Trench crosses the railway was initially successful althought the diary records all the ground taken was lost the following day. Nevertheless the Brigade OP Order the attack on Morval on the 25th states:-

 Perhaps @Howard can show it on Trench Mapper

There is also an Op Order in French in the diary for the attack on the 25th

 

[kenf48]

Further perusal of the war diary

found this Sketch Plan (one of three) showing the boundary point at the railway line

 

and a map dated 16 September annotated just below the 3 'Fr' (all images War diaries on Ancestry)

I think you can say with a high degree of certainty the topographical feature which formed the boundary between the Briish and French was the railway line

[Howard]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 Perhaps @Howard can show it on Trench Mapper

 

 

Sadly it is not straightforward to simply add a map to TM but users can plot the map references above and swap maps. Later versions will have the tools to draw lines and lots of other useful add-ons.

Maps are added to TrenchMapper by an amazing team of 50+ volunteers but the list of those waiting is still quite long. We do not currently have plans for users to add their own maps but they can if required georeference maps the same way we do, using QGIS.

Howard

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Howard said:

Sadly it is not straightforward to simply add a map to TM but users can plot the map references above and swap maps. Later versions will have the tools to draw lines and lots of other useful add-ons.

Maps are added to TrenchMapper by an amazing team of 50+ volunteers but the list of those waiting is still quite long. We do not currently have plans for users to add their own maps but they can if required georeference maps the same way we do, using QGIS.

Howard

Thank you for the explanation I was hoping it was possible to identify the map reference from the information above.

(I like looking at maps but by no means an expert )

[Howard]

30 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Thank you for the explanation I was hoping it was possible to identify the map reference from the information above.

(I like looking at maps but by no means an expert )

You can put the two typed map references into TM, that will mark them. They need the sheet number included, i.e.   57C.T.27.d.5.3 and 57C.T.27.d.25.25

Map fragment Combles2
Name: Bazentin, Le Sars, Longueval, High Wood, Flers
Sheet: 57C SW
Scale: 1:20,000
Edition: 3A 1916
Annotated Trenches corrected to 3/9/1916. Printed 3/09/1916
Id: m_5_005085

Map fragment Combles3
Name: Beaumont Hamel, Villers-au-Flos, Combles, Meaulte
Sheet: 57C SW,62C NW, 57D SE & 62D NE [parts of]
Scale: 1:20,000
Edition: 1916
Special Sheet annotated for Wednesday Morning Papers Only . Printed 18/09/1916
Id: m_004827

The right hand marker is 57C.T.27.d.5.3.

Being close to a sheet edge it is best to choose a map from the selection that is joined or pasted with other sheets or choose a 1;20,000 in preference to a 1:10,000, they usually show the same level of detail.

These two examples are close to the right date; you are very unlikely to get a perfect date match. The Combles Trench referred to is named in pencil but the Orchard and Clump of Trees is not shown which is odd. Further reseach may yield the reason.

To get those maps in TM, right click, choose Map id Jump and use the id above.

If you are not sure how the map references work, have a look at the TM Help->Knowledge Centre->How to Read a Trench Map.

I hope that helps.

Howard

[Biltea]

Dear Howard and KenF

Thanks very much for your replies to my question about the boundary between 56th Division and the French on 25/9/16. This is really a holding reply as it will take me a couple of days to digest the various maps and bits of information you have supplied. I will get back to you when I have put all the pieces together (I'm a bit slow, as I'm not as young as I was!).

Thanks - Bill

[Biltea]

Dear Ken & Howard

 

I've had more time now to peruse your answers and to look up the various maps on the WFA Trench Mapper. I thank you both again for all the trouble you have taken to answer my query.

I guess the basic answer to the question of where is the boundary line is that it is at B3 central, ie where Leuzenake & Fusilier trenches meet the railway line heading towards Combles. This tallies with the sketch map in the OH. Fusilier trench is shown on the sketch map -  "this sketch was sent to the French Bde". It is not named in this sketch but is the trench running almost due south from T27 central to B3 central. (I'm sure you both know this).

There are two minor points which still puzzle me and which you may be able to answer, please:

1.  The French front line on 25/9 obviously runs from B3 central almost due east from that point. However, the British front line, running from Leuze Wood to B3 central - is that Leuzenake trench or Fusilier trench?

2. It's great to know that the dividing line between the British and French was at B3 central. However, it would be good to know where the dividing line went from that point, ie did it go due north, or in some other direction? This would indicate who was responsible  - as at 25/9/16 -  for capturing Combles.

Thanks again - Bill

[Howard]

12 hours ago, Biltea said:

 

 "this sketch was sent to the French Bde". It is not named in this sketch but is the trench running almost due south from T27 central to B3 central.

What is odd is the lack of that trench on other maps. I fear the only solution will be to trawl through war diaries of other units in the hope of finding a map. Sadly that is a somewhat long drawn out process..

Good luck!

Howard

[Biltea]

Hi Howard

"The sketch sent to the French" - comes from WO95 2957/2-2, page 41 (169th Brigade HQ).

Fusiliers trench is the in the middle of the three trenches in T27c & d in this sketch. It is unnamed but  - 

 - the map on page 101 of the same file also shows Fusiliers trench. It is named  in this latter map and is in the same position as in the sketch map on page 41. 

 - from the same file, page 73: 18th September: "QVR commenced a new front line trench running N. from our junction with the French in Savernake Wood (afterwards known as FUSILIERS TRENCH)." (this was on the 6th page of an 11-page report, summarizing the operations of the 169th Bde, 4/9 - 2/10/16.

So, I'm happy that Fusiliers trench exists and its location. We are agreed the junction with the French was at B3 central. 

Both Leuzenake trench and Fusiliers trench had their southern junctions with the French at B3 central. However, which of these two trench lines formed the boundary line leading up to the junction with the French? My money is on Fusiliers trench, as the British had created some assembly trenches east of Leuzenake trench - and - the OH sketch map seems to agree with this , but I am not certain.

Interesting point - this Fusiliers trench is not mentioned in Rats Alley.

 

Best wishes - Bill

[kenf48]

On 10/02/2023 at 23:27, Biltea said:

2. It's great to know that the dividing line between the British and French was at B3 central. However, it would be good to know where the dividing line went from that point, ie did it go due north, or in some other direction? This would indicate who was responsible  - as at 25/9/16 -  for capturing Combles.

The war diary for the 1/5 London (LRB) for the 26th September states, "At about 3.30a.m. a patrol went out and reported enemy was evacuating trenches.  This patrol under 2/Lieut SIMON proceeded into COMBLES and obtained touch with the French.  These being the first British into the town."

[Biltea]

Thanks Ken - Bill

[kenf48]

 

2 minutes ago, Biltea said:

Thanks Ken - Bill

I have just spent the last twenty minutes editing the above post and lost it all - it was a work of art  - grr!

Essentially there is an exchange between the OC  A Coy who despatched the patrol into Combles and his CO giving his position at the end of the day.

A further report from the OC B Coy (Capt Wills?) gives the disposition of all Companies at the end of the day, including:-

A Coy is in touch with the French on their right on the railway at B4 A 3.8

"Combles is clear of the enemy and the French have established a line from W to E from NE side of the village"

The casualty list for October shows that at the end of the month Lt Maynard (A Coy) was missing and Capt Hills (B Coy ) wounded.

There is also a valedictory letter from Rawlinson  on the occasion of 56 Division leaving Fourth Army which gives credit for the fighting between 9th and 27th September and the capture of Combles to the Division.

 

 

[Howard]

14 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

I have just spent the last twenty minutes editing the above post and lost it all - it was a work of art  - grr!

 

Something I have done for many years is to edit posts, emails etc. in Word and save it very frequently always with the filename:- junk. CTRL S.

When finished, paste the text into wherever you need it. The next time you do it, it will say "overwrite y/n", click yes. That way you never build up useless files.

It also provides better spell checking. As you finish a section, CTRL S.

Howard