W.R.D….. RE, West riding, Doncaster 1914

[garfyboy]

Good morning

i picked up this interesting image recently and firstly wondered what the WRD stands for? West riding ? West riding detachment? Of the Royal Engineers.

Also, as some men are marked with a K or a W which I presume is killed and wounded, could there be a related roll of honour or maybe someone has the same image with details/identities?

Thanks

Andy

[charlie2]

WRD = West Riding Division, later renamed 49th (West Riding) Division.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/49th-west-riding-division/

Charlie

Edited 30 January , 2023 by charlie2

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, garfyboy said:

Also, as some men are marked with a K or a W which I presume is killed and wounded, could there be a related roll of honour or maybe someone has the same image with details/identities?

One of the men [4th from left] appears marked with an X.  I wonder if indicating the oiginal owner or sender of the card ?? 

Any details on the rear so as to give us a clue?

M

Edited 30 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
remove duplicate extracted quote

[Mark1959]

From Wiki

"When the Volunteers were subsumed into the new Territorial Force (TF) under the Haldane Reforms of 1908,^[12][13][14] the divisional engineers and signallers of the West Riding Division were supplied by the 1st (Sheffield) West Riding RE (V). The 2nd (Leeds) West Riding RE (V) was therefore surplus, and instead was converted (together with C Company of the 3rd Volunteer Battalion, Duke of Wellington's Regiment (DWR) at Burley in Wharfedale, formerly the 23rd (Wharfedale) Yorkshire West Riding Rifle Volunteer Corps^[15][16][17]) into two new units:^[9][18]

• Northern Telegraph Companies, RE^{[7][5][8][19]}
  • HQ at Claypit Lane, Leeds
  • Northern Wireless Telegraph Company, Leeds
  • Northern Air-Line Telegraph Company, Leeds
  • Northern Cable Telegraph Company, Leeds

• IV West Riding (Howitzer) Brigade, Royal Field Artillery (RFA)^{[5][19][20][16][21][22]}
  • Brigade HQ at Nelson Street, Otley^[23]
  • 10th West Riding (Howitzer) Battery, Otley – from H Company, 2nd WR RE (V)
  • 11th West Riding (Howitzer) Battery, formed at Burley; by 1911 at East Parade, Ilkley^[24] – from part of C Company, 3rd VB, DWR
  • 4th West Riding Brigade Ammunition Column, Peel Place, Burley^[25] – from F Company, 2nd WR RE (V), and part of C Company, 3rd VB, DWR"

So if above correct are they the 2nd Leeds of the West Riding Division.  That they were being called something else by 1914 I am not sure.  Just an idea not my area of expertise

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

signallers of the West Riding Division 

If so - That might account for the high casualty rate indicated - runnning/repairing cables/lines could be a particularly hazardous activity for Signallers of the RE.

M

[charlie962]

Poignant to see a 1914 photo marked up like that. 

LCpl in the front presumably has this shoulder title? 

[Mark1959]

There are a number of newspaper reports on WR Divisional Engineers (Sheffield) going off th Annual Camp at Hornsea  on 1st Aug. The camp was interrupted by mobilisation and the men returned on the 3rd. No obvious report of them being in Doncaster

LLT says about 49th WR Div

"The units of the Division had just departed for annual summer camp when emergency orders recalled them to the home base. All units were mobilised for full time war service on 5 August 1914 and moved to concentrate in the East Yorkshire / South Yorkshire / Lincolnshire area by mid August 1914."

edit. Several newspaper reports from Sept 1914 show the West Riding Territorial Division HQ to be in Doncaster. 

Looked at CWGC. High % of dead from 1st/2nd WR Field Coy and 2nd/1st are from Rotherham and Sheffield.  

Edited 30 January , 2023 by Mark1959

[Terry_Reeves]

I agree with the remarks made by Mark above. Nor do they appear to be a signals unit. I have the history of the the 2nd West Yorkshire Royal Engineers Volunteers and its Successors 1861-1936 by Colonel Walter Boyle OBE. This covers The Northern Telegraph Companies , Royal Engineers (Army Troops) and The 49th (West Riding) Divisional Signals. Non of these match the information on the photograph. Indeed the Becke's  Order of Battle shows HQ and No 1 Section of the Divisional Signal at Sheffield. Doncaster did raise two field companies: 231 and 224, but this wasn't until 1915. 

Interesting, there are 30 men in the picture minus an officer and a sergeant. The number of men equates to an RE field section.

Something of a mystery at the moment. I will have a closer look at some of my material in due course.

TR

 

Edited 30 January , 2023 by Terry_Reeves

[generalist]

6 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

So if above correct are they the 2nd Leeds of the West Riding Division.  That they were being called something else by 1914 I am not sure.  Just an idea not my area of expertise

From later in that article - "On the outbreak of World War I the three Northern Signal Companies were formed into the RE Signals Depot at Biggleswade.". Looking at contemporary reports they remained in Leeds until at least mid-August (17/8/14)

and arrived in Biggleswade on I think Friday 21st (28/8/1914)

Not much time for them to have stopped in Doncaster along the way.

21 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Interesting, there are 30 men in the picture minus an officer and a sergeant. The number of men equates to an RE field section.

My guess is that this is No. 2 section of one of the (Sheffield) field companies, having moved to Doncaster after mobilisation?

1/1st WR Field Company was definitely based there by 2 February, when they were inspected by Commander RE 29th Division. Likewise, the war diary for Commander RE 49th (West Riding) Division starts on 31 March 1915 and is at Doncaster, but the field companies don't begin their war diaries until June when they were abroad.

I haven't been able to find a date of arrival, but some of the divisional engineers were apparently based in Doncaster by November 1914 - there is a news story about three sappers being tried for driving without license-plates, and while the exact details are a little hazy, they do seem to point to the West Riding Division Signals - I can trace both Pte. Beevers and Capt. Emmerson as West Riding territorials, and Beevers has a later service number that matches that unit.

 

Andrew.

[garfyboy]

8 hours ago, charlie2 said:

WRD = West Riding Division, later renamed 49th (West Riding) Division.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/49th-west-riding-division/

Charlie

Thanks Charlie 👍👍

[garfyboy]

8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

One of the men [4th from left] appears marked with an X.  I wonder if indicating the oiginal owner or sender of the card ?? 

Any details on the rear so as to give us a clue?

M

Yes I would say he is the owner/sender of the card and as a guess I would say a survivor who marked this card up post war maybe knowing who was Kia and wounded, sadly no details to the rear

8 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

From Wiki

"When the Volunteers were subsumed into the new Territorial Force (TF) under the Haldane Reforms of 1908,^[12][13][14] the divisional engineers and signallers of the West Riding Division were supplied by the 1st (Sheffield) West Riding RE (V). The 2nd (Leeds) West Riding RE (V) was therefore surplus, and instead was converted (together with C Company of the 3rd Volunteer Battalion, Duke of Wellington's Regiment (DWR) at Burley in Wharfedale, formerly the 23rd (Wharfedale) Yorkshire West Riding Rifle Volunteer Corps^[15][16][17]) into two new units:^[9][18]

• Northern Telegraph Companies, RE^{[7][5][8][19]}
  • HQ at Claypit Lane, Leeds
  • Northern Wireless Telegraph Company, Leeds
  • Northern Air-Line Telegraph Company, Leeds
  • Northern Cable Telegraph Company, Leeds

• IV West Riding (Howitzer) Brigade, Royal Field Artillery (RFA)^{[5][19][20][16][21][22]}
  • Brigade HQ at Nelson Street, Otley^[23]
  • 10th West Riding (Howitzer) Battery, Otley – from H Company, 2nd WR RE (V)
  • 11th West Riding (Howitzer) Battery, formed at Burley; by 1911 at East Parade, Ilkley^[24] – from part of C Company, 3rd VB, DWR
  • 4th West Riding Brigade Ammunition Column, Peel Place, Burley^[25] – from F Company, 2nd WR RE (V), and part of C Company, 3rd VB, DWR"

So if above correct are they the 2nd Leeds of the West Riding Division.  That they were being called something else by 1914 I am not sure.  Just an idea not my area of expertise

Thanks for that Mark 👌🏼👌🏼

[garfyboy]

1 hour ago, Terry_Reeves said:

I agree with the remarks made by Mark above. Nor do they appear to be a signals unit. I have the history of the the 2nd West Yorkshire Royal Engineers Volunteers and its Successors 1861-1936 by Colonel Walter Boyle OBE. This covers The Northern Telegraph Companies , Royal Engineers (Army Troops) and The 49th (West Riding) Divisional Signals. Non of these match the information on the photograph. Indeed the Becke's  Order of Battle shows HQ and No 1 Section of the Divisional Signal at Sheffield. Doncaster did raise two field companies: 231 and 224, but this wasn't until 1915. 

Interesting, there are 30 men in the picture minus an officer and a sergeant. The number of men equates to an RE field section.

Something of a mystery at the moment. I will have a closer look at some of my material in due course.

TR

 

Thanks Terry

8 minutes ago, generalist said:

From later in that article - "On the outbreak of World War I the three Northern Signal Companies were formed into the RE Signals Depot at Biggleswade.". Looking at contemporary reports they remained in Leeds until at least mid-August (17/8/14)

and arrived in Biggleswade on I think Friday 21st (28/8/1914)

Not much time for them to have stopped in Doncaster along the way.

My guess is that this is No. 2 section of one of the (Sheffield) field companies, having moved to Doncaster after mobilisation?

1/1st WR Field Company was definitely based there by 2 February, when they were inspected by Commander RE 29th Division. Likewise, the war diary for Commander RE 49th (West Riding) Division starts on 31 March 1915 and is at Doncaster, but the field companies don't begin their war diaries until June when they were abroad.

I haven't been able to find a date of arrival, but some of the divisional engineers were apparently based in Doncaster by November 1914 - there is a news story about three sappers being tried for driving without license-plates, and while the exact details are a little hazy, they do seem to point to the West Riding Division Signals - I can trace both Pte. Beevers and Capt. Emmerson as West Riding territorials, and Beevers has a later service number that matches that unit.

 

Andrew.

Excellence work, thank you 

[Mark1959]

I took a punt and looked for the 2 field companys mentioned in my last post

Just to see if I could link to a man in the photo

Only found one photo to date for Henry Harrop https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/790011/henry-harrop/

But above image is too poor to compare with a poorish newspaper photo

1st/2nd West Riding Field Coy (12 names)

2nd/1st West Riding Field Coy (17 names)

were used as criteria

2 of the latter were officers so probably can be excluded. Of course some may not be original members. 

Search continues

 

 

Edited 31 January , 2023 by Mark1959

[generalist]

59 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

1st/2nd West Riding Field Coy (12 names)

2nd/1st West Riding Field Coy (17 names)

were used as criteria

I think if this is August then men in 1/1st might also have been present? I don't think that company was split off from the division and assigned to 29th Division until a bit later on.

Andrew.

[generalist]

On 30/01/2023 at 17:28, Terry_Reeves said:

Indeed the Becke's  Order of Battle shows HQ and No 1 Section of the Divisional Signal at Sheffield.

A foolish question on my part: did a No. 2 Section in the divisional signals exist, or was it just a small HQ and one section?

I had a look at Priestley's Signal Service in the European War (p. 11) and it seems to give a strength of 2 officers 57 men for the Territorial "divisional telegraph company", as against 5 & 157 for the "divisional signals company" in the regular divisions (which had four numbered sections). There's no detailed breakdown of that in the appendix (p. 334 on) but it does look intriguingly similar in size to the regular division's No. 1 cable section (1 & 48) or an Army-level airline section (1 & 57)

Andrew.

[generalist]

I turned up a group photo of 1/st West Riding Field Company's officers, including the CSM (in, of all things, Tatler) - but he was presumably too senior in 1914 to have been in the section photo, even if it was of 1st FC! So that sadly does not get us any further.

Bit of a red herring but too nice a photo to miss out.

Sheffield Archives have a few of men taken early in the war - I had thought C.W.A. Potter seemed a plausible match for one of the corporals here, but he turns out to have been in the regular RE as 17001 (and only an acting-corporal, so he may have embellished his letters home).

There are some groups as well: This and this show officers & NCOs of 1st FC (presumably 1/1st) in March 1915 but it is very hard to pick out any faces, and this one the whole company likewise. This is officers and NCOs of either 2/1st or 1/2nd FC, with this one showing the other company, and this is all of 2/1st.

These mostly came from the Sheffield Daily Telegraph so I will see if BNA has better copies.

Andrew.

[generalist]

14 minutes ago, generalist said:

These mostly came from the Sheffield Daily Telegraph so I will see if BNA has better copies.

And here we go: NCOs of 1/1st Field Company published March 1915

Is it possible that the big corporal seated at the front is now the one standing behind the CSM in the middle, and his colleague with the moustache is standing on the left of him? I wouldn't put too much money on it, but it's not impossible.

Officers and NCOs of either 2/1st or 1/2nd Field Company, May 1915

Not quite as sharp but no-one is leaping out at me here. (The CO looks very similar to the one in the photo below - so I think we can hazard a guess this is also 2/1st Field Company)

All of 2/1st Field Company, May 1915 (no chance of recognising anyone here, but not a bad scan)

Looks like we're still missing a good sharp photo of 2nd Field Company; will trawl again tomorrow.

Andrew.

Edited 31 January , 2023 by generalist

[garfyboy]

On 30/01/2023 at 18:23, generalist said:

From later in that article - "On the outbreak of World War I the three Northern Signal Companies were formed into the RE Signals Depot at Biggleswade.". Looking at contemporary reports they remained in Leeds until at least mid-August (17/8/14)

and arrived in Biggleswade on I think Friday 21st (28/8/1914)

Not much time for them to have stopped in Doncaster along the way.

My guess is that this is No. 2 section of one of the (Sheffield) field companies, having moved to Doncaster after mobilisation?

1/1st WR Field Company was definitely based there by 2 February, when they were inspected by Commander RE 29th Division. Likewise, the war diary for Commander RE 49th (West Riding) Division starts on 31 March 1915 and is at Doncaster, but the field companies don't begin their war diaries until June when they were abroad.

I haven't been able to find a date of arrival, but some of the divisional engineers were apparently based in Doncaster by November 1914 - there is a news story about three sappers being tried for driving without license-plates, and while the exact details are a little hazy, they do seem to point to the West Riding Division Signals - I can trace both Pte. Beevers and Capt. Emmerson as West Riding territorials, and Beevers has a later service number that matches that unit.

 

Andrew.

Excellence work, thank you 

[garfyboy]

5 hours ago, generalist said:

And here we go: NCOs of 1/1st Field Company published March 1915

Is it possible that the big corporal seated at the front is now the one standing behind the CSM in the middle, and his colleague with the moustache is standing on the left of him? I wouldn't put too much money on it, but it's not impossible.

Officers and NCOs of either 2/1st or 1/2nd Field Company, May 1915

Not quite as sharp but no-one is leaping out at me here. (The CO looks very similar to the one in the photo below - so I think we can hazard a guess this is also 2/1st Field Company)

All of 2/1st Field Company, May 1915 (no chance of recognising anyone here, but not a bad scan)

Looks like we're still missing a good sharp photo of 2nd Field Company; will trawl again tomorrow.

Andrew.

superb work Andrew, lord knows how you find all this info but well done, the big cpl does look similar, I will look further at the weekend and get the eye glass out, meanwhile, keep up the great work

andy

[generalist]

11 hours ago, garfyboy said:

superb work Andrew, lord knows how you find all this info but well done, the big cpl does look similar, I will look further at the weekend and get the eye glass out, meanwhile, keep up the great work

thanks! I was very pleasantly surprised to find these, but once I'd figured out the Sheffield press was the right angle it all sort of fell together. The Telegraph definitely seems to have been keen on publishing this sort of group pictures - I guess it was a good approach for Territorials, they'd mostly be locally well known men.

It's definitely a useful angle to pursue for other local units - will have to remember it.

Probably from the same day as the NCOs group above, this is the officers and NCOs of 1/1st Field Company in March 1915:

Same men but a little harder to make the connection - is the big corporal now the one on the far left? Unfortunately only the officers are named.

For completeness (and to help identify the groups above) here are the officers of 2/1st Field Company in April.

No luck on finding a picture of 1/2nd, but here's a handful of named men (all noted as Dardanelles 1915 so can be presumed to mostly be pre-war 1st FC men; I missed off a couple who seemed likely to be regulars): Harold Bower; Frank Baynes; JH Bower; Frank Collinson; Tom Allford; JE Askham; GE Bottomley; C Parkin; S Lowe; JW Hill - it's possible some were

 

Hard to be confident about any of them, but maybe one jumps out at you?

Andrew.

[garfyboy]

On 01/02/2023 at 18:13, generalist said:

thanks! I was very pleasantly surprised to find these, but once I'd figured out the Sheffield press was the right angle it all sort of fell together. The Telegraph definitely seems to have been keen on publishing this sort of group pictures - I guess it was a good approach for Territorials, they'd mostly be locally well known men.

It's definitely a useful angle to pursue for other local units - will have to remember it.

Probably from the same day as the NCOs group above, this is the officers and NCOs of 1/1st Field Company in March 1915:

Same men but a little harder to make the connection - is the big corporal now the one on the far left? Unfortunately only the officers are named.

For completeness (and to help identify the groups above) here are the officers of 2/1st Field Company in April.

No luck on finding a picture of 1/2nd, but here's a handful of named men (all noted as Dardanelles 1915 so can be presumed to mostly be pre-war 1st FC men; I missed off a couple who seemed likely to be regulars): Harold Bower; Frank Baynes; JH Bower; Frank Collinson; Tom Allford; JE Askham; GE Bottomley; C Parkin; S Lowe; JW Hill - it's possible some were

 

Hard to be confident about any of them, but maybe one jumps out at you?

Andrew.

Great work again Andrew, I have had a good look at the images and there are a few ‘could be’s ‘ but none I could be certain on, interesting images nevertheless, many thanks for your great input

Andy