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Remembered Today:

Badge identification - yeomanry


poona guard

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Courtesy of 'Dead Spartan'. In case it is neededR.1st.D.Y. Royal 1st Devonshire Yeomanry WW1 shoulder title

Edited by Bob Davies
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Thank you very much Max, problem solved - fully explains the mix. Any chance of a photo without a watermark so I can use it in the book - cheeky I know.

Brilliant and thanks again.

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Just now, max7474 said:

This is a better picture courtesy of the British Military Badge Forum.  

Screenshot 2023-01-22 17.15.08.png

Fantastic.  It closes the loop nicely with an ORs badge.

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The photo is Post 1 is the only one I have ever seen of this badge in wear and seems to confirm that this is an OR's badge design and not just an officers.  The pre war photos I have seen of  RDY troopers have the single crown adorned by the lion without the scroll.  Bearing in mind that after consolidation with the  RNDH in 1916 to form the 16th Devons the issued badge would be the Devonshire regt's badge as seen in the photo, then it would seems that the period of issue was quite short.  My assumption is that this was a  regtl purchase and the former Yeomanry kept wearing it in the 16th.  There is widespread precedence of this type of thing in many other re-roled Infantry battalions.  I am assuming that the 2/1 RDY did the same and retained Yeomanry badges.

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Thanks for this brilliant photo. When the dismounted yeomanry were converted to infantry battalions they were officially allowed to keep their badges and only newcomers to the battalion had to wear the standard infantry badge.

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On 17/01/2023 at 21:25, poona guard said:

The photo was taken in France

Hello Dave @poona guard I am quite certain that the picture was taken in a place called Grammont, Belgium, early 1919. From their war diary WO95 3152-2 they are staying at Grammont taking baths and doing work there from 30-12-1919 until the last page of the diary 25-5-1919. The name St Catherines College is mentioned, so I had a look on Google maps and came up with this location for you. Vesten 42, 9500 Geraardsbergen, Flanders. It is impossible to get into the position of the caimage.png.836ca118c1f9f8cd3979d5fcbc4dae5b.pngmera man but the building is the same one, of that I am certain. I hope this is of help. Regards, Bob.

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2 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Hello Dave @poona guard I am quite certain that the picture was taken in a place called Grammont, Belgium, early 1919. From their war diary WO95 3152-2 they are staying at Grammont taking baths and doing work there from 30-12-1919 until the last page of the diary 25-5-1919. The name St Catherines College is mentioned, so I had a look on Google maps and came up with this location for you. Vesten 42, 9500 Geraardsbergen, Flanders. It is impossible to get into the position of the caimage.png.836ca118c1f9f8cd3979d5fcbc4dae5b.pngmera man but the building is the same one, of that I am certain. I hope this is of help. Regards, Bob.

That is very impressive Bob, many thanks. I will put it in the caption.

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2 hours ago, poona guard said:

That is very impressive Bob, many thanks. I will put it in the caption.

I am pleased I could help Dave. Here is another screen shot courtesy of Google maps, looking up the street. The men must have been somewhere in the garden of the big house to the right which is behind the trees. I doubt much has changed in the last 100 plus years. The spire between the buildings in your OP picture helped no end, I have no idea what church it belongs to but had I not seen that and followed my nose, then I would have given up and took the dog a walk :lol:image.png.56498bdb14f911dfe9ce4950b4c7e7e3.png

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2 hours ago, poona guard said:

Appreciate your efforts

Thank you Dave, anytime. I know it will help to build a better picture for all.

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This is the Devon Yeomanry badge on what I think is a  trench cap and what look to be riding jodpurs so predates the conversion to infantry or is the 2/1.  It is the pre war design without the scroll so the adoption of the badge with a scroll seems to have been  1916 or later

.

Screenshot 2023-01-24 12.01.03.png

Screenshot 2023-01-24 12.02.30.png

Edited by max7474
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40 minutes ago, max7474 said:

This is the Devon Yeomanry badge on what I think is a  trench cap and what look to be riding jodpurs so predates the conversion to infantry or is the 2/1.  It is the pre war design without the scroll so the adoption of the badge with a scroll seems to have been  1916 or later

.

Screenshot 2023-01-24 12.01.03.png

Screenshot 2023-01-24 12.02.30.png

Great photos Max, it will be good to pin dates down.

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11 hours ago, max7474 said:

This is the Devon Yeomanry badge on what I think is a  trench cap and what look to be riding jodpurs so predates the conversion to infantry or is the 2/1.  It is the pre war design without the scroll so the adoption of the badge with a scroll seems to have been  1916 or later

Another good find Max. Can anyone tell me what is the badge on his lower left sleeve please?

Edited by Bob Davies
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On 24/01/2023 at 21:20, Bob Davies said:

Another good find Max. Can anyone tell me what is the badge on his lower left sleeve please?

It’s a 2-piece Hotchkiss Gunners badge Bob.  Cavalry used the Hotchkiss instead of the Lewis Gun. 

89582DE5-F218-4FE3-BF64-EFABAE9BCE98.jpeg

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A1CD7643-DADD-4E8F-BCBE-4865E22CD37D.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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51 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s a 3-piece Hotchkiss Gunners badge Bob.  Cavalry used the Hotchkiss instead of the Lewis Gun. 

Thank you FROGSMILE, their WD  mentions them training in the use of Hotchkiss, quit a few times. Edit here; I have to look in the WDs again to say who and when. I never saw or realised that there was a badge for it. Though Lewis Gunners had a badge so why not Hotchkiss gunners! Up here for thinking, down here for dancing.

Edited by Bob Davies
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19 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you FROGSMILE, their WD  mentions them training in the use of Hotchkiss, quit a few times. I never saw or realised that there was a badge for it. Though Lewis Gunners had a badge so why not Hotchkiss gunners! Up here for thinking, down here for dancing.

It was one of the most widely used LMGs for the Alliance powers Bob.  Hotchkiss seemed to have good production capabilities and the US bought a good many when they came into the war.  Like the Lewis it was sufficiently well liked to still be in use during WW2.

NB.  For the British Army and Dominion forces the badge was also issued in worsted cloth.

4644E5BF-A900-418B-A8EC-3149EF4FEE9F.jpeg

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A7BF23C8-3A3C-4F00-A00D-438A8C157275.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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  • 3 weeks later...
10 minutes ago, max7474 said:

This is interesting https://www.gnmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php?code=21922  An officers cap badge of the same design.  All the photos I have seen of the 1st RDY officers pre war and early war have the badge without the scroll.

Thank you Max, that seems to confirm that it was in use, albeit seemingly limitedly.

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The badge with the scroll is a real oddity.  The few photos that exist of the RDY both pre war and up to 1917 show the cap badges worn by officers and soldiers as the crown and lion badge.  The photo in the original post is dated to 1918 when the issued cap badge was the Devonshire Regiment.  Whilst it seems have been a common practice for the old Yeomanry badges to have been retained and worn alongside the infantry badges, the existence of a 'new' design is a new occurence to me.   However as the scrolled badge exist and the photo shows them in wear in 1918, it seems to confirm that they were worn.

 

I cannot see the officers badge to be 100% certain of the design but the 3 NCOs are wearing the scrolled badge.  the right hand man seems to be wearing one as well but I can't see any chevrons to confirm that he is an NCO.

Edited by max7474
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  • 8 months later...

Hi, I came across this post mentioning Grammont. Do you have a good quality copy of this photo? I was raised in Grammont and already did some research and publications about the British part of the liberation of the town on 11-11-1918 and the subsequent stay of several British regiments in the city.

1416.pdf (gerardimontium.be) - this is an article ( in Dutch ) I wrote about some traces another British Yeomanry unit left in our city.

Hence, I am very much interested in this picture and research that was already done in this post. Good research by Bob in identifying the location!

If you have other pictures from this period, I can try to help in identifying the locations.

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  • 4 months later...

IMG_0368.jpeg.b65179dbb707e9a14d5145a7e671b553.jpegHopefully this may help with R1DY cap badge identification. This photo is of my Great Uncle Lance Cpl. Leslie Vincent Castle, from Exeter. He died in France on 10th Sept 1918 and is buried in Templeax-le-Guerard cemetery. It clearly shows his R1DY shoulder title and his cap badge. I obtained an original shoulder title several years ago and donated it to the Barnstaple Museum, as they didn't have one.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, David Taylor said:

IMG_0368.jpeg.b65179dbb707e9a14d5145a7e671b553.jpegHopefully this may help with R1DY cap badge identification. This photo is of my Great Uncle Lance Cpl. Leslie Vincent Castle, from Exeter. He died in France on 10th Sept 1918 and is buried in Templeax-le-Guerard cemetery. It clearly shows his R1DY shoulder title and his cap badge. I obtained an original shoulder title several years ago and donated it to the Barnstaple Museum, as they didn't have one.

 

 

Thanks David, that photo shows the badge variant without title scroll as posted by Max further up the thread.  It’s good to see the shoulder title so clearly too.

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