max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) For accuracy the bi-metal cap badge shown above is post WW2 manufacture. The regiment wore plan brass ones in WW1 and also for a period in WW2. The latter being on a grey beret before they reverted to the 'correct' sealed pattern badge of the scroll and lion on a black beret in 1944. The badge is not the Loyals imo as the scroll is too short and the wrong shape for the distinctive Loyals shape. Edited 22 January , 2023 by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, max7474 said: For accuracy the bi-metal cap badge shown above is post WW2 manufacture. The regiment wore plan brass ones in WW1 and also for a period in WW2. The latter being on a grey beret before they reverted to the 'correct' sealed pattern badge of the scroll and lion on a black beret in 1944. The badge is not the Loyals imo as the scroll is too short and the wrong shape for the distinctive Loyals shape. I don’t think it’s the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment badge either, so it continues to be a mystery. I suspect that an inquiry with the R1DYH museum at Barnstaple is needed to properly rule them in or out. Below are insignia for the 1st The Royal Dragoons circa WW1 era including the NCO arm badge. Edited 22 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poona guard Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Looking at one of the sergeants the shoulder title is very solid like the Devon Yeomanry one. No sign of a pioneer badge. Why would they be mixed in with the Devons for a photo? Possibly a platoon photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 22 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, poona guard said: Looking at one of the sergeants the shoulder title is very solid like the Devon Yeomanry one. No sign of a pioneer badge. Why would they be mixed in with the Devons for a photo? Possibly a platoon photo? I may have got to the bottom of this, if someone such as yourself or @FROGSMILE can post a picture of the North Somerset Yeomanry cap badge please. As I think that these are the1st Royal Dragoons and the North Somerset Yeomanry who served alongside each other in the 229th Brigade. Edit here; These two were in the 6th Cavalry Brigade not the 229th Brigade as I erroneously said earlier. Edited 22 January , 2023 by Bob Davies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bob Davies said: I may have got to the bottom of this, if someone such as yourself or @FROGSMILE can post a picture of the North Somerset Yeomanry please. As I think that these are the1st Royal Dragoons and the North Somerset Yeomanry who served alongside each other in the 229th Brigade. This is the problem Bob, no badges seem to fit unless the R1stDYH wore a badge during WW1 with a scroll, as per the cigarette card, then nothing else seems to fit. It’s certainly not the North Somerset Yeomanry, which had a very distinctive cap comprising a multi pointed star. It’s most frustrating. As said several times the Barnstaple museum should be consulted to at least rule them in or out, as I cannot find any actual badge (like that believed to actually be the unit crest) on the cigarette card. Edited 22 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 22 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: This is the problem Bob, no badges seem to fit unless the R1stDYH wore a badge during WW1 with a scroll as per the cigarette card then nothing else seems to fit. It’s certainly not the North Somerset Yeomanry who had a very distinctive cap comprising a multi pointed star. Thank you. I think that the men in the picture who are thought to be 16th Devons are infact the North Somerset Yeomanry. The cap badge being very similar to the Devonshire regiment. Edited 22 January , 2023 by Bob Davies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Bob Davies said: Thank you. I think that the men in the picture who are thought to be 16th Devons are infact the North Somerset Yeomanry. The cap badge being very similar to the Devonshire regiment. It’s possible, the photo doesn’t enlarge enough for me to be sure on a phone screen. Unfortunately it still doesn’t solve the other badge with a title scroll. Edited 22 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 22 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 22 January , 2023 3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s possible, the photo doesn’t enlarge enough for me to be sure on a phone screen. Unfortunately it still doesn’t solve the other badge with a title scroll. Ha, yes what I did not take into account there was neither the 1st Royal Dragoons or the North Somerset Yeomanry would have been wearing the broken spur arm badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Just now, Bob Davies said: Ha, yes what I did not take into account there was neither the 1st Royal Dragoons or the North Somerset Yeomanry would have been wearing the broken spur arm badge. Exactly, that has been Dave’s (poona guards) whole point since he first made his inquiring post seeking help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 22 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 22 January , 2023 7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Exactly, that has been Dave’s (poona guards) whole point since he first made his inquiring post seeking help. Reading the 1st Dragoon Guards WD, there are officers and Ors coming and going. One thing that caught my eye was 21st Sept 1917 '10 Ors sent to base for Infantry Brigade Scheme' So could a group of Ors have been sent from the 1st Dragoon Guards to base at some stage and were then posted to the 229th Brigade as required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Having looked at the photo and compared the badges across the Yeomanry and Cavalry I can only conclude that it is indeed that of the Royal Dragoons. It seems possible that they were a reinforcement draft as suggested. Whilst the Eagle was certainly worn by ORs, it's use was unofficial and a regimental practice rather than the official cap badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Bob Davies said: Reading the 1st Dragoon Guards WD, there are officers and Ors coming and going. One thing that caught my eye was 21st Sept 1917 '10 Ors sent to base for Infantry Brigade Scheme' So could a group of Ors have been sent from the 1st Dragoon Guards to base at some stage and were then posted to the 229th Brigade as required? The term ‘scheme’ was a euphemism for a training course back then, so it seems they were attending infantry training, but whether as student trainees, or as cavalry demonstrators, etc. seems a little unclear. If it is them in the photo then the absence of cavalry arm badges still seems odd, so it’s not a given I think. 32 minutes ago, max7474 said: Having looked at the photo and compared the badges across the Yeomanry and Cavalry I can only conclude that it is indeed that of the Royal Dragoons. It seems possible that they were a reinforcement draft as suggested. Whilst the Eagle was certainly worn by ORs, it's use was unofficial and a regimental practice rather than the official cap badge. I did consider that, but have not been able to find a single image of the scroll badge being worn during WW1 with service dress. That includes both, other ranks and officers. Edited 22 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 To be clear I am not suggesting that the officers wore anything other than the eagle badge. But in the absence of other candidates I am unsure who else they could be except for 1st DG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Then I found this with a quick internet search and immediately contradict myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 1 minute ago, max7474 said: Then I found this with a quick internet search and immediately contradict myself According to the Imperial War Museum the Eagle badge was worn on service dress from 1915 to 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Having looked at the names on the caption the CO in the photo died in action in May 1915 so the picture is before then. Rather tragically Lt Leckie also dies in the same year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/view.php?uid=211561 This is the 2Lt in the photo who enlisted in about August 1914 and was killed in October which dates this photo to the start of the war. Edited 22 January , 2023 by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Just now, max7474 said: https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/view.php?uid=211561 This is the 2Lt in the photo who enlisted in about Augest 1914 and was killed in October which gates this photo to the start of the war. It seems clear then that all ranks 1st RD wore the Eagle of the 105th as their insignia from 1915-1919, so it appears to rule that regiment out from the OP photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Well if we rule out 1st DG then that only leave this badge as anything remotely like it. Positive is that it is Devon Yeomanry so matches 16th Bn Devon's lineage. Negative is thta it's an Officers' bladed cap badge and not an ORs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, max7474 said: Well if we rule out 1st DG then that only leave this badge as anything remotely like it. Positive is that it is Devon Yeomanry so matches 16th Bn Devon's lineage. Negative is thta it's an Officers' bladed cap badge and not an ORs. Brilliant Max, well done! You’ve cracked it. That’s the badge that I could not find despite searching. There’s no doubt in my mind that that’s what is seen in the OP photo. Really good work, we got there in the end! It’s good to be able to confirm matters for @poona guard. I don’t think that the blades aspect matters that much, it’s definitely the badge seen in the photo and it (the design if not the fixture) was probably worn by all ranks. Edited 22 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 22 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 22 January , 2023 18 minutes ago, max7474 said: Well if we rule out 1st DG then that only leave this badge as anything remotely like it. Positive is that it is Devon Yeomanry so matches 16th Bn Devon's lineage. Negative is thta it's an Officers' bladed cap badge and not an ORs. That is a good find, thanks for sharing it. I looked all over for one of those but not where you did! ***. What do you mean by 'bladed cap badge'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 It is an officers bronze badge with bladed prong fittings rather than an other ranks cap badge on a slider (vertical shank in WD parlance) or 2 lugs and a split pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 1 minute ago, max7474 said: It is an officers bronze badge with bladed prong fittings rather than an other ranks cap badge on a slider (vertical shank in WD parlance) or 2 lugs and a split pin. It’s just excellent you found it. It was getting really frustrating. Good job 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 22 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 22 January , 2023 1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s just excellent you found it. It was getting really frustrating. Good job 👍 I second that, thanks Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, max7474 said: It is an officers bronze badge with bladed prong fittings rather than an other ranks cap badge on a slider (vertical shank in WD parlance) or 2 lugs and a split pin. Incidentally can you please look for the officers pattern shoulder title in block letters - RNDH (Royal North Devon Hussars). I’ve scoured the web, but can only find the OR pattern - NDH (Ray Westlake refers). Edited 22 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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