Badge identification - yeomanry

[poona guard]

Perhaps there isn't an answer?

[max7474]

It is not uncommon for Yeomanry Troopers re-roled into Infantry to wear their old cap badges alongside comrades wearing the Infantry ones.  The practice was by no means universal but common place.

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Perhaps there isn't an answer?

If they existed the museum will have an example I’m sure.  It requires contact with them or a kind forum member who lives near Barnstaple to visit and inquire.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, max7474 said:

It is not uncommon for Yeomanry Troopers re-roled into Infantry to wear their old cap badges alongside comrades wearing the Infantry ones.  The practice was by no means universal but common place.

Agreed Max but that’s not the issue in this instance.  Dave is just trying to clarify if the badge seen in the OP photo shows 1st Royal Dragoons alongside men of the Devon’s as Pete believes. 

[CorporalPunishment]

It should be noted that not all CWGC headstones have the standard cap badge design on them.    Pete.

[poona guard]

Army regulations specifically said that the dismounted yeomanry could retain their badges when they joined a line regiment. I am certain they are Devon yeomanry but the badge is puzzling

[Bob Davies]

36 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It should be noted that not all CWGC headstones have the standard cap badge design on them.    Pete.

Thank you Pete, worth bearing in mind when doing other searches. My final thoughts on this badge are  that the scroll badge on the cigarette card and the CWGC carving are the regimental design for the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry but the powers that be at the time perhaps decided that it was too close to the Dragoon badge, that Devon Yeomanry could only use the crown and lion as they are (I think) lower down the order of precedence in the army? The Queens Own Oxfordshire Hussars have a similar overall shaped badge but with a cypher instead of a crown. As FROGSMILE suggests, boots on the ground to visit the museums and find a local expert.

Edited 18 January , 2023 by Bob Davies
punctuation

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you Pete, worth bearing in mind when doing other searches. My final thoughts on this badge are  that the scroll badge on the cigarette card and the CWGC carving are the regimental design for the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry but the powers that be at the time perhaps decided that it was too close to the Dragoon badge that Devon Yeomanry could only use the crown and lion as they are (I think) lower down the order of precedence in the army? The Queens Own Oxfordshire Hussars have a similar overall shaped badge but with a cypher instead of a crown. As FROGSMILE suggests, boots on the ground to visit the museums and find a local expert.

It’s funny but something similar crossed my mind too.  The Royal Dragoons were the senior regiment of horse (albeit below dragoon guards) but a great many other Yeomanry badges are similar to some senior regular units, especially those whose badge was a circlet surmounted by a crown.

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s funny but something similar crossed my mind too.  The Royal Dragoons were the senior regiment of horse (albeit below dragoon guards) but a great many other Yeomanry badges are similar to some senior regular units, especially those whose badge was a circlet surmounted by a crown.

Cheers FROGSMILE, I try to say it as I see it, sometimes it is of benefit other times one has to duck Yes, circlet and crown is quite common. I leave it to others now, though a very interesting thread which has given me a lot of understanding, especially with regard to the Yeomanry and a trail back to the Boer war, for research of my own.

[Pat Atkins]

19 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It should be noted that not all CWGC headstones have the standard cap badge design on them.    Pete.

Good point - I remember being flumoxed by the 23rd London Regiment badge used on CWGC headstones, not the same as their cap badge at all.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Good point - I remember being flumoxed by the 23rd London Regiment badge used on CWGC headstones, not the same as their cap badge at all.

It’s because some regiments used their regimental crest on CWGC headstones and others (a majority) their regimental cap badge.  This is oft misunderstood.  They are entirely different things, but are frequently conflated/confused.  Crests are generally for letter heads, invitation/Christmas cards and such like, but sometimes also signage and, in this case grave markers.

Edited 20 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 17/01/2023 at 21:37, Bob Davies said:

I had certainly though the picture to have been taken in winter, leaves are not on the trees, somewhere in UK. The architecture reminds me of England but I cannot say for certain. Edit; They look too clean to be near the front line or back areas? No visible medal ribbons though good service strips are shown so later in the war.... Another link with the same picture cigarette card written in French here; https://england1418.wordpress.com/category/1-royaume-uni/50-cavalerie/yeomanry/1st-devon-yeomanry/

Looking again I’ve noted that this cigarette card series has frequently conflated the cap badge with the regimental crest.  The same has occurred with these two regiments also.  The Wiltshire’s actual cap badge has no title scroll and the RNDH cap badge is circular and not oval. 

Edited 20 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looking again I’ve noted that this cigarette card series has frequently conflated the cap badge with the regimental crest.  The same has occurred with these two regiments also.  The Wiltshire’s actual cap badge has no title scroll and the RNDH cap badge is circular and not oval. 

Nice one FM FROGSMILE! There is a saying; 'It takes a Hatter to make a Hat!' I am the guilty party here for leading myself and all of you down a wabbit hole I should have trusted @CorporalPunishments judgment in his consideration.... We have to find the  Dragoon link now!

[Pat Atkins]

6 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Nice one FM FROGSMILE! There is a saying; 'It takes a Hatter to make a Hat!'

 They don't give you a baton for nothing, it seems 

[Bob Davies]

On 17/01/2023 at 21:49, FROGSMILE said:

The other thing to examine is which Reserve Cavalry Regiment the Devon Yeomanries were a part of and see if the 1st RD were also in it.

I may have dug us out of the rabbit hole or dug a little deeper? I am now suggesting the cap badge belongs to The 1/12th Bn, the Loyal North Lancashire Regt. They are part of the 74th Division (Broken Spur Div), joined as Divisional Pioneer Bn 10 April 1918 information from the Long Long Trail. Cap badge picture courtesy of Wikipedia. LLT link;http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/74th-yeomanry-division/

[Bob Davies]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looking again I’ve noted that this cigarette card series has frequently conflated the cap badge with the regimental crest.  The same has occurred with these two regiments also.  The Wiltshire’s actual cap badge has no title scroll and the RNDH cap badge is circular and not oval. 

A book called 'The Yeomanry Regiments. Over 200 Years of Tradition' by Patrick Mileham  supports what you say FROGSMILE. Link to the book here; https://archive.org/details/yeomanryregiment0000mile_u6d5/page/82/mode/2up

Edited 20 January , 2023 by Bob Davies

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

A book called 'The Yeomanry Regiments. Over 200 Years of Tradition' by Patrick Mileham  supports what you say FROGSMILE. Link to the book here; https://archive.org/details/yeomanryregiment0000mile_u6d5/page/82/mode/2up

Thanks Bob, that’s useful confirmation.

Edited 20 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I may have dug us out of the rabbit hole or dug a little deeper? I am now suggesting the cap badge belongs to The 1/12th Bn, the Loyal North Lancashire Regt. They are part of the 74th Division (Broken Spur Div), joined as Divisional Pioneer Bn 10 April 1918 information from the Long Long Trail. Cap badge picture courtesy of Wikipedia. LLT link;http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/74th-yeomanry-division/

They would have had pioneer collar badges Bob.  The battalion’s allocated troops as divisional pioneers were very proud of their identifying insignia.

[Bob Davies]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

They would have had pioneer collar badges Bob.  The battalion’s allocated troops as divisional pioneers were very proud of their identifying insignia.

******! On the OP there is a staff Sgt middle rank seated on the left and a corporal and a private to his right who all look to have a Broken Spur on their right top of arms. Yes, no sign of pioneer collar badges.

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

******! On the OP there is a staff Sgt middle rank seated on the left and a corporal and a private to his right who all look to have a Broken Spur on their right top of arms. Yes, no sign of pioneer collar badges.

Yes they’re definitely from the brozen spur Division, I think that’s probably why Dave has the photo, for his book on the TF battle insignia.

Edited 20 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Donald D]

On 17/01/2023 at 21:25, poona guard said:

Agreed it is very similar but I can find no trace of it in Kipling & King.

The photo was taken in France and shows the 16th with 74 patches.

If taken in France would be late 1918, no leaves on trees, possibly in Lille area. The 74th Division arrived in France in May 1918, not many tanned faces and no war wound stripes visible. Strange for a Battalion that just had 12 months hard fighting in Palestine and France.

[Bob Davies]

2 hours ago, Donald D said:

If taken in France would be late 1918, no leaves on trees, possibly in Lille area. The 74th Division arrived in France in May 1918, not many tanned faces and no war wound stripes visible. Strange for a Battalion that just had 12 months hard fighting in Palestine and France.

Or may I add if taken in France/Belgium it could be late 1918 as you say or into 1919, as they were still there 31-5-1919 at a place called Grammont in Belgium, according to their WD. First page of their Brigade WD on arrival in France is here, telling us the units involved;

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Bob Davies
To add some...

[Bob Davies]

So a better list a few pages in gives us these units which make up the 229th Brigade  74th Div. No Cap Badge that looks like the 1st Royal Dragoons that I can see. I will continue reading and report back.

[Bob Davies]

Nothing in the 229 Brigade WD that mentions 1 Royal Dragoons. One thing that will be of interest to you @FROGSMILE Officers in the 16th Devons are still regarded as belonging to Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Nothing in the 229 Brigade WD that mentions 1 Royal Dragoons. One thing that will be of interest to you @FROGSMILE Officers in the 16th Devons are still regarded as belonging to Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry.

Yes it’s very curious and I am puzzled why there are no cavalry arm badges for the regular and very proud regiment, 1st - the Royal Dragoons.  Traditionally they wore them on all forms of uniform, so something doesn’t seem right.

There’s also the matter of which badge was worn by the regiment in WW1.  In service dress, 1st The Royal Dragoons favoured its iconic emblem of a Napoleonic Eagle that it had captured in battle. The enclosed photo shows Private, Thomas Ernest Barry 1st Royal Dragoons, D/5772.  He apparently enlisted in 1911, served in Africa when the War was declared and the regement was then recalled home and sent to France with the BEF. He survived the war and was discharged in 1919.  Note his insignia, including collar badge as per most cavalry regiments during the war.  Officers also wore the same Eagle badge in service dress bronze.  @poona guard might wish to note.

 I am not surprised that the R1DYH retained their regimental integrity and status, as that was the traditional protocol.  Cavalry are senior to infantry, and so they were, in each case, where roles were changed, considered to be cavalry temporarily operating as infantry, always with the implied promise that they would eventually return to their normal role.  The R1DYH were in effect on loan to the Devonshire Regiment, and it’s for that reason that their usual name remained within the unit title.

Edited 22 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE