Upside down AIF Patch?

[JPE]

The photograph below is supposed to be that of a 2nd Division soldier taken in April 1916.  The battalion was not identified in the notes and it appears that the lower half of the diamond is of a dark colour, perhaps black or purple.  For this to be so, the patch would have to have been worn upside down to match any of the possible patches of battalions of the Second Division AIF, as shown in the lower image.

Would someone like to enlighten me?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

You have to be careful in trying to guess the true colour of an object from a monochrome image especially an old one.

In 1914-18, lots (most) of the film stock was taken on orthochromatic film.

On the finished print, reds appear very dark, and blues and greens pale, often invisible against the background.

It's conceivable that your patch could blue or green over red:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthochromasia#Orthochromatic_photography

Look at the Union Jack in the Wiki image - the red cross is dark, the blue bits almost invisible.

 

Edited 12 January , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[FROGSMILE]

I would just like to second the advice that Dai has given you JPE.  If you carry out a search within the forum using the term “orthochromatic film” you will find many examples outlining the distortion of true colour in photographs using that particular type of process.

Edited 12 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[JPE]

Thanks DByS and FM for the nudge into another aspect of a researches lot.  Its always good to compare images that have a clear identification of the same period.

Having said that, the patch in question was either of the 22nd or 23rd Bn AIF of which a B/W orthochromatic film image of a known 22nd Bn patch was the better match.

Thus ends the exercise with no intent.

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

9 hours ago, JPE said:

Thus ends the exercise with no intent.

Just before you go...

The patch in question has to be one of these?

When I suggested blue over red, it was just an example I gave to illustrate the vagaries of orthochromatic film, knowing nothing about Australian colour markings. But blue over red does seem a strong probability, putting 22nd Bn. in the frame.

[JPE]

Checking out other images of the time of with clear identification, the 22nd (blue over red) was compared to the 23rd (brown over red).

The 24th (white over red) would appear as white over black and the 21st (black over red) as black over black, therefore discounted.

According to a spectrograph for orthochromatic film, and the photographs, it's 99% the 22nd, for the moment.

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, JPE said:

Checking out other images of the time of with clear identification, the 22nd (blue over red) was compared to the 23rd (brown over red).

The 24th (white over red) would appear as white over black and the 21st (black over red) as black over black, therefore discounted.

According to a spectrograph for orthochromatic film, and the photographs, it's 99% the 22nd, for the moment.

 

I think you’ve almost certainly identified the relevant battalion with your analysis.

[JPE]

 

This is a colour response chart for early B/W film circa 1875.  Very relevant to this post and orthochromatic film.

[4thGordons]

12 minutes ago, JPE said:

 

This is a colour response chart for early B/W film circa 1875.  Very relevant to this post and orthochromatic film.

This is good - do you have a SOURCE for this please?

Chris

[JPE]

From an article written by Brian Gamm.

https://cmykhistory.com/orthochromatic-photography-part-1/

[4thGordons]

Great, thanks very much.