haggis999 Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 My uncle Tom Anderson was a Scottish soldier during WW1. I think he belonged to the Cameronians regiment. Can anyone confirm that from the attached photo? What was his likely rank? Are the three upturned chevrons on his lower right arm an indication of three years service overseas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 (edited) The chevrons are detailed here: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-an-overseas-service-chevron/ His left arm bears a single wound stripe. A lot more to come I’d say. Lovely picture. I believe the chevrons date the picture as not before Jan 1918 but i may stand corrected. can you check is forename (s). Is it Tom or Thomas and did he have any other forenames? Edited 22 December , 2022 by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis999 Posted 22 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2022 He was Thomas John Anderson, but always known as Tom, and was born in Glasgow on 29 April 1890. Many years ago, my aunt told me a story about him being carried on a stretcher across rough ground while in great pain from a shrapnel wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 December , 2022 Admin Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Did he live at 9 Ruthven Street? If so, I have found a medal index card for a Thomas John Anderson, Cameron Highlanders went overseas as a Lance Corporal in July 1915, and commissioned in April 1916. I don’t think the Cameronians were kilted. If it is him, his service papers will have survived, but I’m not sure if they are anywhere online, or you would have to go to Kew to view them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis999 Posted 22 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Yes, he did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 (edited) Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders, rather than Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles), which was a Lowland Regiment and so not kilted (as pointed out by Michelle). His rank in the photograph is Second Lieutenant, the lowermost of two ranks in the junior, or ‘subaltern officer’ category. He has a wound stripe and 3 overseas service stripes (small and inverted on his right lower sleeve, they were blue in colour for 1915 service onward). Edited 23 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 December , 2022 Admin Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Images courtesy of Ancestry.co.Uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis999 Posted 22 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Thanks for that information, Michelle. I had been mistakenly assuming that the Cameron Highlanders and the Cameronians were two names for the same regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis999 Posted 22 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Our posts crossed in cyberspace. Thanks to both of you for those images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 December , 2022 Admin Share Posted 22 December , 2022 https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/how-to-find-an-officers-service-reord/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 December , 2022 Admin Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Looking at the Long Long Trail, the 7th Btn landed in France 9/7/15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Hi @haggis999 and welcome to the forum Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, has some basic information on the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders, including that it was the 6th and 7th Battalions that landed in France on the 9th July 1915 - the date shown on Thomas' Medal Index Card. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/queens-own-cameron-highlanders/ He was officially commissioned on the 30th April 1916 - the notification should have appeared in the London Gazette and related publications like the Edinburgh Gazette, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. By this stage infantry officer cadets went through a 18 week minimum course in the UK, so he'd probably left the unit he deployed with overseas before the end of 1915. Only if he successfully passed would his enlistment in the ranks be cancelled and he would be commissioned as an officer. That information from the Gazettes then fed through, (slowly), into various official publications, such as the British Army Monthly List. Allowing for that pace, the first one I looked at was September 1916, which shows a 2nd Lieutenant T. J. Anderson, with seniority from the 30th April 1916, (i.e. the date he was commissioned), was then on the establishment of the 5th Battalion of the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders. Note that being on the establishment isn't the same as physically being with them. (See Column 1487, just before the start of the 6th Battalion Officer Roll). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109471815 It would be worth checking the Battalion War Diary to see if he gets a mention. For those units serving in France & Flanders these can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page in their online catalogue and following the instructions - no financial details are requested. The relevant page of the National Archive for the 5th Battalion War Diary covering May 1915 to February 1919 can be found here :- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352537 Will dig around a bit more and see what I can find. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 (edited) His VM and BWM medal roll states 6th battalion Edit: whilst non commissioned. Edited 22 December , 2022 by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Not spotting any Officers long papers for him in the National Archive catalogue - which may be because the contents have been weeded away over the years and so there was nothing left to hand over to the National Archive, or because he stayed inm (perhaps with the Territorials), after 1920. The March 1917 British Army Monthly List still has him as a probationary Second Lieutenant on the establishment of the 5th Battalion. (Column 1487a) https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119988355 But by the September 1917 British Army Monthly List there is no T.J. Anderson listed serving as an officer with the Cameron Highlanders - in fact a search of the index shows no T.J. Anderson at all. (There is a T.J.C. Anderson, but he was a Lieutenant in the Machine Gun Corps, attached from the 8th Battalion Durham Light Infantry, and who was originally commissioned 10th April 1916 - so a completely diferent individual). June 1917 appears to be the last time T J. Anderson is listed. (Column 1487). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/105433162 He may have dropped off in error - I'm not picking him up at all in the quarterly lists for 1917, nor am I readily finding a mention of him in the casualty lists that appeared in newspapers, (although those are not the easiest source to search). Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 (edited) A sneak at the war diary has him joining them in the field on the 7th of May 1916. It’s a good diary for names so I suspect his departure may be forthcoming : Edited 22 December , 2022 by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 The OP photo suggests a date of 1917 and taken at home after wounding given the cuff adornments. I suspect he never returned to duty and was perhaps medically discharged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis999 Posted 22 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2022 I'm much impressed by and very grateful for all the interesting info that has been unearthed about my uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 (edited) I haven’t found him in a casualty report yet but thats more down to effort and time rather than his absence . He will be out there somewhere in the Times and Scottish papers though I have no doubt. Likely in mid May 1917. His Battalion along with the 8th Black Watch attacked enemy trenches on the 3rd of May 1917 whilst it was still dark at 0345AM. . Only three unwounded officers remained and those were named in the war diary - he was not one of them. Officer casualties - 2 killed, 2 missing (later confirmed killed) and 14 wounded. Edited 22 December , 2022 by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has 97 deaths associated with the 5th Battalion for the 3rd May 1917, including the following officers. 2nd Lieutenant James Aitken. Captain Archibald Cameron. 2nd Lieutenant Douglas Torrell Drummond. Captain James Bannerman Lorimer. (C Company). In a Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times, of the 1st June 1917 2\Lt D. T. Drummond, Cameron Highlanders appears in the category "Missing believed Wounded". There are no other Cameron Highlander Officers listed. From the 12th May 1917 onwards I can see on the likes of the British Newspaper Archive individual reports for the above individuals describing them variously as killed in action, wounded, wounded and missing and died of wounds But so far no casualty list which might include the wounded officers. The hunt continues! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 Peter, As you know (in fact I think you briefed me) this was within the 100 day “Void” of casualty reports where the Times stopped full lists and HMSO had yet to standup. This was in the main OR dead and wounded not reported but I wonder if they missed officer wounded for a period as well. Scottish and Liverpool papers kept up a decent set of lists in this period so he may be out there somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 21 hours ago, haggis999 said: I had been mistakenly assuming that the Cameron Highlanders and the Cameronians were two names for the same regiment. Definitely quite different regiments, but in all fairness when first raised as the 79th Highlanders Army Lists show the Camerons were actually initially known as the Cameronian Highlanders - soon changed though to avoid this kind of confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, 6RRF said: Definitely quite different regiments, but in all fairness when first raised as the 79th Highlanders Army Lists show the Camerons were actually initially known as the Cameronian Highlanders - soon changed though to avoid this kind of confusion. They were more interested in the “Queen’s Own” aspect of their title, allegedly being Queen Victoria’s favourite Regiment from North of the border after it attended her in Scotland. The Cameron name cannot have been taken particularly seriously by the regiment, as its original post 1881 badge only bears the name at all because of a mistake at the badge manufacturer due to a paper label attached to the badge. It ended up being the only regular Scottish Regiment titled with a clan name after 1881. Edited 23 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 Apart from the Gordon Highlanders... As to the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders there was even a suggestion that they be taken into the Guards when the other regiments were being paired off 1i 1881 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, 6RRF said: Apart from the Gordon Highlanders... As to the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders there was even a suggestion that they be taken into the Guards when the other regiments were being paired off 1i 1881 Ah yes, Clan Gordon, how remiss of me to miss them out. I’ve read about the Cameron’s - to Scots Guards proposals too, and also for the RWF to become Welsh Guards. I imagine that these proposals were mooted during the committee stages of the Childers Reforms, I do recall that the initial proposals for pairing were quite different to what was eventually accepted and imposed. Edited 23 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 (edited) On 22/12/2022 at 16:29, haggis999 said: born in Glasgow on 29 April 1890. There is a TJ Anderson with that date of birth who has a Post 1921 Service File surviving. These were at the MOD in Glasgow but are in the process of being transferred to the National Archive. 11001 AOP000235439 File P136075 ANDERSON TJ 1890-04-29https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/mod-service-records-collection-faqs.pdf Edited 23 December , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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