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Remembered Today:

Uniform identification please


Gill Norgan

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Hello, I've joined to see if the members of this forum can help me to identify family members from photographs. I have inherited these and sadly there's no one left who can tell me who the photos are of, though my grandfather and his two brothers all served in the First War and it's likely this photo may be of his brothers.

The two brothers were both Fusiliers, London Regiment, but different battalions. There aren't many clues on this uniform and I have wondered if this is is pre-war - it seems likely that the were all Reservists.

 

Can anyone help?

 

1568803687_UnknownpossThomascleanedup.jpg.9dac2f108adcc2d91481b11da19840d8.jpg

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Hi @Gill Norgan and welcome to the forum :)

The Royal Fusiliers were a Regular Army regiment, while the London Regiment was a wholly Territorial Force one, so in peace time would have been part-timers who drilled once a week - "The Saturday Night Soldiers".

There is an affiliation relationship between some of the Battalions of the London Regiment and the Royal Fusiliers so it gets a bit complicated.

Picture looks pre-war to me, but for uniform questions I'd normally expect @FROGSMILE to jump in - if he doesn't know the answer, then he will probably know someone who does!

Meanwhile if you can share any biographical details about your grandfather and his two brothers, (where and when born, even if only roughly, parents, areas lived in, when and if married, etc - whatever you feel comfortable with sharing), then it may assist with the identification.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
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5 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @Gill Norgan and welcome to the forum :)

The Royal Fusiliers were a Regular Army regiment, while the London Regiment was a wholly Territorial Force one, so in peace time would have been part-timers who drilled once a week - "The Saturday Night Soldiers".

There is an affiliation relationship between some of the Battalions of the London Regiment and the Royal Fusiliers so it gets a bit complicated.

Picture looks pre-war to me, but for uniform questions I'd normally expect @FROGSMILE to jump in - if he doesn't know the answer, then he will probably know someone who does!

Meanwhile if you can share any biographical details about your grandfather and his two brothers, (where and when born, even if only roughly, parents, areas lived in, when and if married, etc - whatever you feel comfortable with sharing), then it may assist with the identification.

Cheers,
Peter

He’s wearing the undress 5-button rifle green frock of a rifles battalion.  Presumably this is within the London Regiment, but it could just as easily be King’s Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC) or Rifle Brigade (RB).  Before 1908, many of the battalions that coalesced to form ‘the London Regiment’ in that year had previously been Volunteer Battalions (VBs) of the KRRC and RB.

The photo is almost certainly pre WW1 (probably close to the time of the 2nd Boer War) , and it might well be that after mobilisation and training the units served with overseas (as part of a draft of reinforcements) were those associated with the Royal Fusiliers (1st to 4th London’s).  Alternatively, the move to those units might have been after wounding, convalescence, recovery and then redeployment.

The photo below shows the more expensive 7-button fitted tunic worn as full dress for battalion guard and ceremonial (known as ‘review order’), but gives you an idea of the overall appearance of a rifleman’s uniform pre khaki.

767AF091-9D1A-4F6E-AF2F-53D0D2D94B6D.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 minutes ago, travers61 said:

Details of the photographer does not narrow the time frame down enough. The Charles Howard Photograph Studio was at 81 High Street, Andover, Hants by 1901 & moved away from the address to 74 High Street sometime after Charles's death in 1921.

https://www.andoveradvertiser.co.uk/news/19231397.andover-history-memories-74-high-street/

Thanks for this, I hadn’t thought of researching the photographer. I wonder what an Islington man was doing in Hampshire? 😀

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38 minutes ago, Gill Norgan said:

Thanks for this, I hadn’t thought of researching the photographer. I wonder what an Islington man was doing in Hampshire? 😀

Annual Training Camp.  Each man had to attend at least half the duration of the camp to be able to claim his annual cash bounty.  Although cash was probably not the overriding motive for men to volunteer as an auxiliary (part-time) soldier, it was attractive to wives, girlfriends and parents, and so helped to assuage the inconvenience brought on by regular ‘drill nights’ (i.e. weekly training sessions) and going away for up to 2-weeks each Summer.  Camps took place all over Britain and by the turn of the century were usually ‘brigaded’ (i.e. up to 4 battalions in one spot) so that after individual and sub unit training the camp could culminate with battalion manoeuvres.  Infantry battalions in the South tended to migrate for training each year to the bigger training areas, around Surrey, Hampshire, and Salisbury Plain. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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53 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Annual Training Camp.  Each man had to attend at least half the duration of the camp to be able to claim his annual cash bounty.  Although cash was probably not the overriding motive for men to volunteer as an auxiliary (part-time) soldier, it was attractive to wives, girlfriends and parents, and so helped to assuage the inconvenience brought on by regular ‘drill nights’ (i.e. weekly training sessions) and going away for up to 2-weeks each Summer.  Camps took place all over Britain and by the turn of the century were usually ‘brigaded’ (i.e. up to 4 battalions in one spot) so that after individual and sub unit training the camp could culminate with battalion manoeuvres.  Infantry battalions in the South tended to migrate for training each year to the bigger training areas, around Surrey, Hampshire, and Salisbury Plain. 

Thank you so much for the information you've given me. I hope you won't mind perusing another photograph I have, even with a jeweller's loupe I can't get a good enough idea of the cap badge to identify it.

WW1 photo.jpg

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3 hours ago, Gill Norgan said:

Thank you so much for the information you've given me. I hope you won't mind perusing another photograph I have, even with a jeweller's loupe I can't get a good enough idea of the cap badge to identify it.

WW1 photo.jpg

I’m not 100% sure as they’re not wearing the black buttons that are usually a feature of their uniform but I think it might be the London Rifle Brigade.  They’re definitely Territorial Force and some of the men are wearing the Imperial Service Tablet awarded to individuals who volunteered to serve overseas should they be called.  It indicates a date between 1911 and 1913 and from the open neck of the officers jackets we know it’s around the latter and possibly even at the final camp in 1914 when by convenient coincidence most units were ordered to mobilise for war.   I’d be interested to learn what @CorporalPunishmentthinks the cap badge is.  

8D36DCB0-A0D1-423D-9DD8-5E60B8C4DE78.jpeg

 

C6E93511-2ECC-4577-9B66-F1C3B8E1D12D.jpeg

4DE1F6EB-0F64-41CD-9AE9-6B5CA19A9802.jpeg

BB2A1F82-35AC-475D-B6D6-BB45E9D4CEE9.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not 100% sure as they’re not wearing the black buttons that are usually a feature of their uniform but I think it might be the London Rifle Brigade.  They’re definitely Territorial Force and some of the men are wearing the Imperial Service Tablet awarded to individuals who volunteered to serve overseas should they be called.  It indicates a date between 1911 and 1913.   I’d be interested to learn what @CorporalPunishmentthinks the cap badge is.  

8D36DCB0-A0D1-423D-9DD8-5E60B8C4DE78.jpeg

7B32AC04-FDA3-4729-BB30-F432F1515B34.jpeg

C6E93511-2ECC-4577-9B66-F1C3B8E1D12D.jpeg

I think that I can see a wider, more defined ribbon along the bottom curve of the badge, perhaps the zoom I've attached will help.

badge detail.JPG

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2 hours ago, Gill Norgan said:

I think that I can see a wider, more defined ribbon along the bottom curve of the badge, perhaps the zoom I've attached will help.

badge detail.JPG

The only other of vaguely similar shape is the 10th County of London Battalion (Hackney) the London Regiment.  

838F2407-88D4-44B4-AE42-00CD0FA019A9.jpeg

1AFFECDB-055A-4A29-9A79-586823643D96.jpeg

6873D713-BBEF-410F-8A34-8A636475C729.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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52 minutes ago, Gill Norgan said:

I think that I can see a wider, more defined ribbon along the bottom curve of the badge, perhaps the zoom I've attached will help.

badge detail.JPG

I think the one that is most helpful might be this man.

713501748_SignallercroppedfrompictureownedbyGWFmemberGillNorgan.png.778082207cd92cb31eba875e3152e64e.png

All image rights remain with the current owner.

Shape of shoulder badge can be seen.
Cap badge shape.
Use of what appears to be an early field telephone may help with dating the picture.

Cheers,
Peter

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7 minutes ago, PRC said:

I think the one that is most helpful might be this man.

713501748_SignallercroppedfrompictureownedbyGWFmemberGillNorgan.png.778082207cd92cb31eba875e3152e64e.png

All image rights remain with the current owner.

Shape of shoulder badge can be seen.
Cap badge shape.
Use of what appears to be an early field telephone may help with dating the picture.

Cheers,
Peter

It confirms uniform features from the photo as a whole, on one man, but unfortunately it isn’t definitive for the cap badge ID.  He has typical multi tier TF shoulder titles and an Imperial Service Tablet.  It needs a larger screen view really, although I’m not sure that the resolution would be any better. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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38 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I would say they are 10th Battalion, London Regiment (Hackney), without a doubt.   Pete.

Thanks Pete, that matches much better with the buttons in the OPs photo and also the insignia of the two officers at the rear.  The LRB officers had black buttons and in true rifles style (unlike some others) didn’t wear collar badges.

10th (County of London) Battalion (Hackney), London Regiment TF had their HQ at 49 The Grove, Hackney.

From the LongLongTrail adjunct to this forum:

1/10th (County of London) Battalion (Hackney)
August 1914 : at The Grove in Hackney. Part of 3rd London Brigade, 1st London Division. Moved on mobilisation to Bullswater, going on in September to Crowborough.
April 1915 : moved to Norwich and transferred to the East Midland Brigade in East Anglian Division.
7 May 1915 : formation renamed 162nd Brigade in 54th (East Anglian) Division. Moved to St Albans.
Late July 1915 : sailed from Plymouth for Gallipoli, going via Mudros. Landed at Suvla Bay 11 August 1915.
December 1915 : evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt.

2/10th (County of London) Battalion (Hackney) Formed in London in September 1914. Moved in November to Crowborough where placed under orders of 2/2nd London Brigade in 2/1st London Division.
Moved to Ipswich in June 1915 and formation retitled as 175th Brigade in 58th (2/1st London) Division. Moved on to Bromeswell Heath in May 1916 and then to Longbridge Deverell in July.
4 February 1917 : landed at Le Havre.

3/10th Battalion
Formed in April 1915 and moved to Tadworth. Moved in October to billets at Sutton, then to Fovant in January 1916.
8 April 1916 : became 10th Reserve Bn.
1 September 1916 : absorbed 25th Reserve Cyclist Bn. Moved to Teignmouth in autumn 1916, then Dawlish in December. Moved to Frith Hill in April 1917, where they then remained.

DDAF2710-3DA7-4B72-AC8B-EF5817AAF701.jpeg

 

0EED485A-5B6F-4D12-B30E-DE516F468070.jpeg

1D2B6E78-4146-4804-BAE9-7F4EF3CBE874.jpeg

4777A436-2C1F-45E6-A44D-B7F2A25A9467.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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33 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I would say they are 10th Battalion, London Regiment (Hackney), without a doubt.   Pete.

I agree.

1493553870_WW1photo.jpg.b663d8fc3d1559829ea7c4c743d0f00c-001.jpg

1493553870_WW1photo.jpg.b663d8fc3d1559829ea7c4c743d0f00c-002.jpg

Edited by Bob Davies
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May be a total red herring, but there is a Medal Index Card for a Private 743 William Norgan, 10th Battalion, London Regiment. First "landed" Gallipoli on the 29th July 1915 - actually more likely to be the date he left the UK. Subsequently 3rd Battalion, London Regiment, as Private 7041, and was with them when he was renumbered in early 1917 as 258461. He was killed in action. The related Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal, (Ancestry only) is very likely to contain a lot more information on Theatres of War served in, with which Battalion and when.

1904118982_WilliamNorganMiCsourcedAncestry.jpg.830885cf564ff0c527425bda31429152.jpg

Image courtesy Ancestry.

Soldiers Died in the Great War has him killed in action on the 15th May 1917 while serving as a Lance Corporal with the 3rd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), London Regiment in France and Flanders. He was born Barnsbury, resident Dalston and enlisted Hackney. He had originally been 743 10th London Regiment.

His webpage on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website adds that he was aged 23, a Lance Corporal in the 1/3rd Battalion, and has no known grave, being remembered on the Arras Memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/779680/william-norgan/

No obvious Missing Persons enquiry received by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

There are some possible matches in the civil records, including a 15 year old Blacksmith, born Islington, who was recorded living at Hackney with an aunt and uncle on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but won't dig any deeper there for now.

Cheers,
Peter

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100% 1/10th London Regiment, Signals section. What a fantastic photo. The officer in the middle is Major Ford Moore. 

The Battalion landed at Suvla bay Gallipoli on 10-8-15 and fought through Until the evacuation in December 1915. Later serving in Egypt, Suez and Palestine.

All the best,

James

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1 hour ago, Hackney Gurkha said:

The officer in the middle is Major Ford Moore. 

Not great quality but the comparison image on the right of Major Arthur Pilcher Ford-Moore is a crop from a picture of the officers of the 10th Battalion that appeared in the edition of The Tatler dated September 29th, 1915.

If anything the man in the Signallers Section picture looks older.

1983311480_MajorArthurPilcherFordMoorepanelv1.png.14d374425779a34c2d528326c5b7a65e.png

No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

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10 hours ago, PRC said:

May be a total red herring, but there is a Medal Index Card for a Private 743 William Norgan, 10th Battalion, London Regiment. First "landed" Gallipoli on the 29th July 1915 - actually more likely to be the date he left the UK. Subsequently 3rd Battalion, London Regiment, as Private 7041, and was with them when he was renumbered in early 1917 as 258461. He was killed in action. The related Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal, (Ancestry only) is very likely to contain a lot more information on Theatres of War served in, with which Battalion and when.

1904118982_WilliamNorganMiCsourcedAncestry.jpg.830885cf564ff0c527425bda31429152.jpg

Image courtesy Ancestry.

Soldiers Died in the Great War has him killed in action on the 15th May 1917 while serving as a Lance Corporal with the 3rd (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers), London Regiment in France and Flanders. He was born Barnsbury, resident Dalston and enlisted Hackney. He had originally been 743 10th London Regiment.

His webpage on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website adds that he was aged 23, a Lance Corporal in the 1/3rd Battalion, and has no known grave, being remembered on the Arras Memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/779680/william-norgan/

No obvious Missing Persons enquiry received by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

There are some possible matches in the civil records, including a 15 year old Blacksmith, born Islington, who was recorded living at Hackney with an aunt and uncle on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but won't dig any deeper there for now.

Cheers,
Peter

That’s my great-uncle, I have his medals, death penny and accompanying letters. His aunt was his sole legatee and one of the letters is addressed to her, the other is the letter from the King. I’ll add more info later, I’ve never found his enlistment papers on Ancestry but his medal details are all there. I have a copy of a photo of him too.

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3 hours ago, Gill Norgan said:

That’s my great-uncle,

So presumably the William Henry Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, whose birth was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q3 1895?

Likely parents are the Thomas Norgan and Alice Raymen who were married in the Bethnal Green District in Q3 1880?

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales Thomas, a 32 year old Chimney Sweep, born Clerkenwell, and Alice, a 31 year old, were recorded living at Robin Hood Yard, Lyon Street, Islington. Children with them at that point were Edward, (4), Alice, (2) and Thomas, (1) – all born Islington.

  • The birth of an Edward Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q2 1886.
  • The birth of an Alice Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q4 1888.
  • The birth of a Thomas Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q3 1890

The death of an Alice Norgan, aged 40, was recorded in the City of London District in Q2 1900.

The marriage of a Thomas Norgan to a Charlotte Annie Quinn was recorded in the Islington District in Q3 1901 – however the couple appear to have been calling themselves husband and wife back on the 31st March when the census was taken as there is a household at 16 Lyon Street, Islington consisting of:-

Thomas Norgan, aged 42, married, a Sweep, born Clerkenwell.
Charlotte Norgan,aged 43, married, born Islington.
Edward Norgan, aged 14, born Islington.
Alice Norgan, aged 12, born Islington.
Thomas Norgan, aged 10, born Islington.

Since the previous census as well as the birth of William Henry Norgan, there had also been the birth of a Daisy Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, which was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q4 1892. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is an 8 year old Daisy Norgan, born “St Pancras”, London who was recorded living with an aunt and uncle, Ellen and Charles Raymond, at 95 Charlton Street, St. Pancras, London.

But no obvious match for William Henry Norgan, ( and obvious variations), on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

The death of a 43 year old Thomas Norgan was recorded in the Islington District in Q3 1903.

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales :-

  • Edward Norgan, aged 24 and a Railway Carman, born Islington, was recorded as the married head of the family at 26 Clayton Street, Caldeonian Road,  Islington. Living with him is his wife of six years, Rachel, (23, born Islington)  and their three children,  Edward, (6), C Thomas, (3) and Rachel M, (1),  - all born Islington.
  • Alice Norgan, (22) and Daisy Norgan, (18), both born St. Mary’s Islington, were recorded as live in domestic servants at Belgrave House, Green End, Boxmoor, Hertfordshire.
  • No obvious match for Thomas.
  • William Norgan, the 15 year old Blacksmith, born Islington, who was living with his uncle and aunt I have already mentioned. The address was 105 Balls Pond Road, Hackney, and they were Owen and Elizabeth Johnson

While there could be lots of Thomas Norgan’s who served in the UK only, and didn’t qualify for any service medals, the appears to be only one that got to a Theatre of War. Initially 2476 with the 1st Battalion, he was a Lance Corporal by the time he landed in Egypt on the 30th August 1915.  He was still with the 1st Battalion at the time of the Territorial Force renumbering at the start of 1917, receiving new service number 200685.

He would subsequently be honourably discharged on the 22nd August 1917, and so received the Silver War Badge. There is a contact address, probably in connection with sending out the SWB, of 5 Edwards Cottages, Hydes Place, Canonbury, London, W.

As well as the Silver War Badge Roll it looks like Ancestry have Pension Records for him, as well as the transcripts of a couple of pension ledger cards. (The documents themselves will be on Fold3). Hopefully you will be able to establish from those whether he had pre-war service.

If he did then as he was 1st Battalion, part of the London Rifle Brigade, that would tend to rule him out as a match for the man in your first picture.

Thomas also received the Distinguished Conduct Medal.

838136404_GBM_DCM_VOL1_1342TNorgancitation.jpg.d8119958103965b6147b7657e28301de.jpg

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

FindMyPast say they have some Great War era Army Service records for an Edward Norgan, born c1886 and dating from 1915. I don’t subscribe so can’t check them out. However FindMyPast have a relationship with the genealogy site familysearch, which means there is a bit more indexed there. That Edward Norgan was Regimental Service Number 1932 with the 3/1st London Brigade, Royal Field Artillery. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBG-W61W

Ancestry also have them indexed as Service Records.

So unless those records reference any pre-war TF infantry service then likely your first picture isn’t Edward Norgan either.

Apologies if none of that is new to you, but it may open up other lines of enquiry for other forum members to pursue – and of course please point out any and all errors as there is no need to send anyone on a wild goose chase:)

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
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24 minutes ago, PRC said:

So presumably the William Henry Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, whose birth was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q3 1895?

Likely parents are the Thomas Norgan and Alice Raymen who were married in the Bethnal Green District in Q3 1880?

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales Thomas, a 32 year old Chimney Sweep, born Clerkenwell, and Alice, a 31 year old, were recorded living with them at Robin Hood Yard, Lyon Street, Islington. Children with them at that point were Edward, (4), Alice, (2) and Thomas, (1) – all born Islington.

  • The birth of an Edward Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q2 1886.
  • The birth of an Alice Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q4 1888.
  • The birth of a Thomas Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q3 1890

The death of an Alice Norgan, aged 40, was recorded in the City of London District in Q2 1900.

The marriage of a Thomas Norgan to a Charlotte Annie Quinn was recorded in the Islington District in Q3 1901 – however the couple appear to have been calling themselves husband and wife back on the 31st March when the census was taken as there is a household at 16 Lyon Street, Islington consisting of:-

Thomas Norgan, aged 42, married, a Sweep, born Clerkenwell.
Charlotte Norgan,aged 43, married, born Islington.
Edward Norgan, aged 14, born Islington.
Alice Norgan, aged 12, born Islington.
Thomas Norgan, aged 10, born Islington.

Since the previous census as well as the birth of William Henry Norgan, there had also been the birth of a Daisy Norgan, mothers’ maiden name Raymen, which was registered with the civil authorities in the Islington District in Q4 1892. On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is an 8 year old Daisy Norgan, born “St Pancras”, London who was recorded living an an aunt and uncle, Ellen and Charles Raymond, at 95 Charlton Street, St. Pancras, London.

But no obvious match for William Henry Norgan, ( and obvious variations), on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

The death of a 43 year old Thomas Norgan was recorded in the Islington District in Q3 1903.

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales :-

  • Edward Norgan, aged 24 and a Railway Carman, born Islington, was recorded as the married head of the family at 26 Clayton Street, Caldeonian Road,  Islington. Living with him is his wife of six years, Rachel, (23, born Islington)  and their three children,  Edward, (6), C Thomas, (3) and Rachel M, (1),  - all born Islington.
  • Alice Norgan, (22) and Daisy Norgan, (18), both born St. Mary’s Islington, were recorded as live in domestic servants at Belgrave House, Green End, Boxmoor, Hertfordshire.
  • No obvious match for Thomas.
  • William Norgan, the 15 year old Blacksmith, born Islington, who was living with his uncle and aunt I have already mentioned. The address was 105 Balls Pond Road, Hackney, and they were Owen and Elizabeth John

While there could be lots of Thomas Norgan’s who served in the UK only, and didn’t qualify for any service medals, the appears to be only one that got to a Theatre of War. Initially 2476 with the 1st Battalion, he was a Lance Corporal by the time he landed in Egypt on the 30th August 1915.  He was still with the 1st Battalion at the time of the Territorial Force renumbering at the start of 1917, receiving new service number 200685.

He would subsequently be honourably discharged on the 22nd August 1917, and so received the Silver War Badge. There is a contact address, probably in connection with sending out the SWB, of 5 Edwards Cottages, Hydes Place, Canonbury, London, W.

As well as the Silver War Badge Roll it looks like Ancestry have Pension Records for him, as well as the transcripts of a couple of pension ledger cards. (The documents themselves will be on Fold3). Hopefully you will be able to establish from those whether he had pre-war service.

If he did then as he was 1st Battalion, part of the London Rifle Brigade, that would tend to rule him out as a match for the man in your first picture.

Thomas also received the Distinguished Conduct Medal.

838136404_GBM_DCM_VOL1_1342TNorgancitation.jpg.d8119958103965b6147b7657e28301de.jpg

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

FindMyPast say they have some Great War era Army Service records for an Edward Norgan, born c1886 and dating from 1915. I don’t subscribe so can’t check them out. However FindMyPast have a relationship with the genealogy site familysearch, which means there is a bit more indexed there. That Edward Norgan was Regimental Service Number 1932 with the 3/1st London Brigade, Royal Field Artillery. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBG-W61W

Ancestry also have them indexed as Service Records.

So unless those records reference any pre-war TF infantry service then likely your first picture isn’t Edward Norgan either.

Apologies if none of that is new to you, but it may open up other lines of enquiry for other forum members to pursue – and of course please point out any and all errors as there is no need to send anyone on a wild goose chase:)

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you, you’ve done a good job! I started seriously researching when I was given William and Edward’s medals and I have a public family tree on Ancestry. I was considering sharing what I know about the three brothers’ military service as the guys on this wonderful forum are better at interpreting battalion details and service records than I am and as you say, their history may be of interest to other members’ research. The War Diaries on Ancestry have a really interesting account of the night action where Thomas won his DCM, which involved other battalions including the Middlesex Regiment and possibly his brother William’s battalion. There are hand drawn maps and a couple of notes send back from the action to Officers. Sadly, his medals may have been pawned as they are no longer with his branch of the family. G

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1 hour ago, Gill Norgan said:

you say, their history may be of interest to other members’ research.

With so many records lost in the Warehouse bombing in WW2 we have to take every scrap of information we can find. :)
My personal approach is not to silo the civil and military records as all too often they are mutually supportive. So for example:-

Did a man marry during the period he might have served - then what was his occupation shown as, does it include unit details, what pre-marriage addresses were given for bride and groom, who were the witnesses, all from the marriage register entry \ certificate..
Did he become a father during the time he served - then what is fathers occupation shown as, and is any home address given - birth certificate \ baptismal register.
Where were they on the 1911 Census, and if the soldier survived, the 1921 Census.
Can the address information be pulled together from those sources to narrow down wher he might have called his home address at the time the 1918 Absent Voter List was prepared, and if he survived, the 1919 one.

Fortunately you have some documentary evidence for all three so less of an issue but still worthy of consideration, particularly as the identity of the young man in the first photo is unclear, other than that he likely to be Territorial Force. As Frogsmile has already mentioned, when the TF in general, and the London Regiment in particular, came into being in April 1908, it absobed a number of already existing Volunteer Battalions. The Volunteers were given an opportunity to transfer over, and I believe for a limited period they could sign up under the new terms and conditions for the balance of their previous enlistment. But for new recruits it was four years. While there were a few potential four year periods where any of the three brothers could have signed up, done their four years, decided it wasn't for them anymore and didn't renew, all before August 1914 and so weren't liable for service, it is a limiting factor to consider. A man could also be discharged on health \ disciplinary \ civil convictions, (all of which would count against him rejoining on the outbreak of war), could purchase his release, or as a result of moving out of the area and no longer being able to readily attend training \ muster when called out, be released from his contract of service. The latter, which would need to be for a reasonable length of time, you'd expect to be reflected in the civil record, while records of a conviction would be likely to turn up in the local press.

Looking forward to seeing what you have to post on the wartime careers of the three brothers.

Cheers,
Peter

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Peter has done his usual brilliant job in tracing the family and their military service during the period straddling WW1.

 I’ve been puzzling over the initial photo of a soldier in rifle green frock, which was a more loose fitting working garment than the tunic.  The type shown has 5-buttons and pockets with flaps in the skirts.  As a day to day jacket it saw widespread use in the Army and could be seen in scarlet, dark rifle green, Elcho grey, dark blue and even drab khaki, in which latter guise it was used in the 2nd Boer War.  It was thus a common working garment between the 1890s and 1900 for regular army units, and probably at least a decade after that for the auxiliary volunteers.

However, until 1908, and the formation of the Territorial Force, the Rifle Volunteers had long been marked out by an elaborate ‘Austrian knot’ on the cuffs, frequently formed from piping in a contrasting colour (see example below).  From 1908 the distinctive knot was abandoned and the TF wore the same cuff decoration as their regular counterparts.

Turning now to units, there had been an entirely different 10th County of London Battalion of the London Regiment between 1908 and 1912.  Originally the 36th Middlesex RVC, with various reorganisations it initially became renumbered as 18th before then becoming (without change of title) a 4th VB of the Rifle Brigade in the 1880s.  It remained thus until 1908, whence it became the 10th London’s, but due to continuous recruiting problems it was completely disbanded in 1912.  At that point an entirely new and unconnected 10th London’s was formed, based in Hackney, and any men local to Paddington who wished to be TF soldiers were instead directed to a local drill hall that was affiliated to the 3rd London’s (Royal Fusiliers).

Given the dates and the appearance of the soldier in the first photo posted in this thread, it seems entirely possible that he still wears the uniform of the 4th VB of the Rifle Brigade at some point after 1908, when it became the first iteration 10th London’s (Paddington Rifles) without change of uniform.  Their HQ was in Harrow Road and is shown below along with its location on the map (marked by red symbol).

NB.  The 10th London’s (Hackney), formed in 1912, did not at any stage style themselves as rifles, nor wear any feature of rifles dress. 

 

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Edited by FROGSMILE
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