Garter Flash - Which Kilted Regiment?

[Derek Black]

Can anyone identify which kilted regiment this postcard imagine is of?

I’ve been trying to do so going by the garter flash. It looks like two tabs and double belled. 
 

They may not be a Scottish regiment of course and be South Africans or Canadians  

 

Thanks,
Derek

Edited 20 December , 2022 by Derek Black

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Derek Black said:

Can anyone identify which kilted regiment thus postcard imagine is of?

I’ve been trying to do so going by the garter flash. It looks like two tabs and double belled. 
 

They may not be a Scottish regiment of course, and be a South Africans or Canadians  

 

Thanks,
Derek

Seaforth Highlanders Derek.  Double belled hose tops and fishtail ends.

Edited 19 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Derek Black]

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Seaforth Highlanders Derek.  Double belled hose tops and fishtail ends.

Marvellous. I wasn’t sure and knew someone would clarify. Many thanks. 
 

Derek. 

[o j kirby]

Hello,

I would say Gordon Highlanders with the double belled garter flashes.

Owain

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, o j kirby said:

Hello,

I would say Gordon Highlanders with the double belled garter flashes.

Owain

You can see the white lines on the edges of the Mackenzie kilt in the OP’s photo, with Gordon’s the yellow over stripe cannot be discerned on Orthochromatic film.

Edited 19 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[o j kirby]

Hello,

Yes I have seen what looks like white lines, but having looked through a few photos, the garter flashes do still look like Gordon Highlanders. Perhaps someone has references for Canadian Highlanders that might shed a bit of light on this topic? It can be fair to say though, that sometimes we do see oddities regarding uniform and kit. 

Owain.

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, o j kirby said:

Hello,

Yes I have seen what looks like white lines, but having looked through a few photos, the garter flashes do still look like Gordon Highlanders. Perhaps someone has references for Canadian Highlanders that might shed a bit of light on this topic? It can be fair to say though, that sometimes we do see oddities regarding uniform and kit. 

Owain.

They are Seaforth.  Here is another photo that links tartan, cap badge, and double belled with fishtail garter tabs. It’s a regular battalion.

Edited 20 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And here is a Gordon Highlander.  The yellow over stripe does not show, and hose tabs are single belled. 

Edited 20 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Based on the garter flashes in the OP they appear to be Seaforth Highlanders pattern to me.  The Seaforth Highlanders wore a single scarlet bar type flash with a square end (not fishtail) with three flat folds - these were never worn "belled" as in the Gordon Highlanders style. Frogsmile's group folder of the Seaforth group repairing boots shows this single flash well.

Now the OP photo gets a bit more complicated.

Derek has kindly highlighted the most obvious flash which happens to be worn by a piper.  This too is a single bar with a square end and three flat folds but it is a pipers flash which is slightly wider than the typical scarlet flashes of the remainder of the Seaforths and of a different material.  The material, annoyingly referred to today (by some) as Guards pattern, is shown below. 

I would offer that the confusion suggesting a double flash is down to the vertical lines and the wider width of the pipers flashes.

 

Edited 20 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Based on the garter flashes in the OP they appear to be Seaforth Highlanders pattern to me.  The Seaforth Highlanders wore a single scarlet bar type flash with a square end (not fishtail) with two flat folds - these were never worn "belled" as in the Gordon Highlanders style. Frogsmile's group folder of the Seaforth group repairing boots shows this single flash well.

Now the OP photo gets a bit more complicated.

Derek has kindly highlighted the most obvious flash which happens to be worn by a piper.  This too is a single bar with a square end and two flat folds but it is a pipers flash which is slightly wider than the typical scarlet flashes of the remainder of the Seaforths and of a different material.  The material, annoyingly referred to today (by some) as Guards pattern, is shown below. 

I would offer that the confusion suggesting a double flash is down to the vertical lines and the wider width of the pipers flashes.

 

This is now getting into details way over my head I’m afraid.  The two distinctive loops worn in the Seaforth Highlanders photo are what I (and probably a lot of others not steeped in Scottish terminology) assumed to be ‘double belled’, in that the Gordon’s have just the single loop.  I thought ‘belled’ to mean puffed up as opposed to pressed flat. The Seaforth images don’t seem to show pressed flat to me.  I think I would need to see all these different types properly illustrated side-by-side to appreciate the differences.

For the OP, regardless of what style they’re termed as, the double loops of the hose top garter tabs, along with the Mackenzie tartan kilt edges confirm your photo shows Seaforth Highlanders.

Edited 20 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

41 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 I think I would need to see all these different types properly illustrated side-by-side to appreciate the differences.

The flashes in the OP are Seaforth.

Seaforth Highlanders did not "bell" flashes in the exaggerated manner of the Gordons. Seaforth flashes were worn flat if not ironed flat. Below are the Gordon and Seaforth variants in their 'parade style' glory ........... which was clearly not the expectation as shown in the OP photo. 

If it helps to standardise nomenclature: Seaforth single straight end flash/with three flat loops and Gordons double fishtail flash/each with single belled loop. 

(For completeness BW, QOCH and A&SH double fishtail flash/no loops)  

 

Edited 20 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

The flashes in the OP are Seaforth.

Seaforth Highlanders did not "bell" flashes in the exaggerated manner of the Gordons. Seaforth flashes were worn flat if not ironed flat. Below are the Gordon and Seaforth variants in their 'parade style' glory ........... which was clearly not the expectation as shown in the OP photo. 

If it helps to standardise nomenclature: Seaforth single straight end flash/with three flat loops and Gordons double fishtail flash/each with single belled loop. 

(For completeness BW, QOCH and A&SH double fishtail flash/no loops)  

 

Yes the standard nomenclature is helpful, thank you.  I think I can just about make out what you describe in the colour images, but the red and white hose makes the tabs difficult to see.  It would be beneficial and a useful future reference for the forum if photos of all the regimental garter tabs, side-by-side, could be obtained and posted at some point. 

Edited 20 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It would be beneficial and a useful future reference for the forum if photos of all the regimental garter tabs, side-by-side, could be obtained and posted at some point. 

Wilco.

[Derek Black]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to find the nuances of garter flash terminology inexact.
A worthwhile discussion gents.

I look forward to (someone else) making a definitive guide we can all refer to....

Thank you,
Derek.

 

[TullochArd]

6 hours ago, Derek Black said:

I look forward to (someone else) making a definitive guide we can all refer to....

....... someone else?  In that case I'll consider myself stood down on this one Derek.

Edited 21 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[6RRF]

My vote's for you producing a comparative chart !

And at the same time confirmation of where they went. My understanding was midway round the leg, but some photies produced in relation to a different query appear to show the Black Watch wearing them almost below the knee

[Derek Black]

18 hours ago, TullochArd said:

....... someone else?  In that case I'll consider myself stood down on this one Derek.

Someone else than myself I meant.
 

Apologies if it came across differently

 

Cheers,

Derek. 
 

[FROGSMILE]

On 20/12/2022 at 17:01, TullochArd said:

Wilco.

It will certainly be appreciated if you’re able to cobble together images of the various regimental garter tabs themselves, as opposed to just photos of soldiers wearing them.  I say this because the differences will be much clearer.  There aren’t many books on uniform, including Scottish that I don’t have in my library because it’s been a lifelong interest, but I have never seen any clear explanation and illustration.  I suspect that they evolved and so dates would be important too, even if only approximate. I’m typical British Army fashion they do not appear in either, Dress Regulations (officers), or Clothing Regulations (other ranks).  The differences are left to ‘regimental arrangements’, which is something of a free pass.  Ergo your illustration might well become the only definitive resource!

Edited 22 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE