Uniform ideas?

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

Hi. I’m trying to identify the people in this photo that was hanging in the house that I purchased. Can anyone help ID the uniform the soldier is wearing? Is the woman likely a sibling or wife? 
I know a family of a solider who died in 1916 lived in this house. Could this be him? https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/756267/charles-day/
Thanks for any help!

Nathan 

[6RRF]

The immediate response on the uniform is that he's wearing a 1914 Pattern leather belt, which suggests an early war "Kitchener" volunteer. An enlargement of the shoulder-title on his right shoulder might take us further. Otherwise the best I can offer at this stage is that he probably belonged to a local infantry unit - he doesn't appear to have any connection with horses.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

Could this be him? https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/756267/charles-day/

Hi @Nathan Dylan Goodwin and welcome to the forum.

Private G/1769 Charles Day, 7th Battalion, Queens Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) who was killed in action on the 29th September 1916 aged 28 would in general terms fit the scenario of a wartime Kitchener Army man serving with a local unit set out by @6RRF.

But a few things to note - if you've chanced upong him because the additional information shown is that he was the "Son of Robert and Elizabeth Day, of Gains Cottage, Brabourne, Ashford, Kent", then that would have been information gathered in the mid-twenties, when the predecessor of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, the Imperial War Graves Commission, was in contact with next of kin to advise on the plans for the deceased to be permanently remembered - in Charles case that was on the Thiepval Memorial, dedicated to those with no known grave who fell in the fighting on the Somme.

Soldiers Died in the Great War, an HMSO publication from the 1920's, shows that Charles was born Lenham, Kent and enlisted Guildford, Surrey - place of residence is not shown.  Oddly he is shown on that source as died 1915, but that could simply be a transcription error - there are many in that source. The most likely match on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was a 22 year old Charles Day, born Lenham, Kent, unmarried and an under gamekeeper, who was recorded living at Cold Blow, Bonnington, Hythe, Kent. This was the household of his parents Robert, (aged 51, an under gamekeeper, born Egerton, Kent), and Elizabeth, (aged 51, born Lenham, Kent). The youngest child living with them was an 8 year old Mabel, born Ripe, Sussex.

I don't have subscription access to FindMyPast so I can't see the detail of the 1921 Census of England & Wales, but from what can be publicly searched there I can see a household recorded in the parish of Mersham, East Ashford that included a Robert Day, (born Lenham c1860), Elizabeth Day, (born Lenham c1860), Frederick Day, (born Lenham c1886), Minnie Day, born Chalvington, Sussex c1894) and Mabel Day, (born Ripe, Sussex c1903). Of course no reason why the Day's didn't leave the picture at the house at Brabourne when they lived there, but seems unlikely Charles was ever resident.

He is not recorded on the Brabourne Roll of Honour. http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Kent/Brabourne.html
or Mersham http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Kent/Mersham.html
but he is remembered at Bonnington: http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Kent/Bonnington.html

Unfortunately like the vast majority his service records did not survive when German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they were being stored in WW2.

The best bet for another image of Charles in order to rule him in or out for the man pictured here. I've tried a quick search for him on the likes of the British Newspaper Archive, a subscription website, but his surname brings up a lot of irrelevant matches regardless of what other criteria I use.

In terms of an alternative candidate, the Legge family were recorded living at Gains Cottage, Brabourne, on the 1911 Census. Father Walter John, (50), was a Head Gamekeeper.  Among the 7 children still at home were an 18 year old Joseph William Legge, (under gamekeeper, born Hye, Kent), Ernest Legge, (13, born Pluckley, Kent) and Arthur Legge, (11, born Waltham, Kent). All were of an aged where they could have served, plus there was another child who was not home on the night of the census.

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

The most likely match on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was a 22 year old Charles Day, born Lenham, Kent, unmarried and an under gamekeeper, who was recorded living at Cold Blow, Bonnington, Hythe, Kent.

Peter, it is Bonnington (home town/place of enlistment) against Day's name in the Daily Casualty List of killed.

Charlie

[PRC]

28 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Peter, it is Bonnington (home town/place of enlistment)

Thanks for checking Charlie, you definately had better luck than me finding him on the casualty lists

Will be address of next of kin - enlistment should only feature if there is no next of kin known to the military.

In most next cases next of kin location and the normal home address of the casualty are one and the same, (it will be a parent or wife), but you can't take it for granted.

The front page of the War Office Weekly Casualty List from it's start in August 1917 has the following standard notes - last two are the relevant ones :-

Image courtesy The National Library of Scotland.

No reason to believe the same practice didn't apply earlier.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Courtesy Findmypast newspapers, Kentish Express and Ashford News 25/11/16

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @Nathan Dylan Goodwin and welcome to the forum.

Private G/1769 Charles Day, 7th Battalion, Queens Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) who was killed in action on the 29th September 1916 aged 28 would in general terms fit the scenario of a wartime Kitchener Army man serving with a local unit set out by @6RRF.

But a few things to note - if you've chanced upong him because the additional information shown is that he was the "Son of Robert and Elizabeth Day, of Gains Cottage, Brabourne, Ashford, Kent", then that would have been information gathered in the mid-twenties, when the predecessor of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, the Imperial War Graves Commission, was in contact with next of kin to advise on the plans for the deceased to be permanently remembered - in Charles case that was on the Thiepval Memorial, dedicated to those with no known grave who fell in the fighting on the Somme.

Soldiers Died in the Great War, an HMSO publication from the 1920's, shows that Charles was born Lenham, Kent and enlisted Guildford, Surrey - place of residence is not shown.  Oddly he is shown on that source as died 1915, but that could simply be a transcription error - there are many in that source. The most likely match on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was a 22 year old Charles Day, born Lenham, Kent, unmarried and an under gamekeeper, who was recorded living at Cold Blow, Bonnington, Hythe, Kent. This was the household of his parents Robert, (aged 51, an under gamekeeper, born Egerton, Kent), and Elizabeth, (aged 51, born Lenham, Kent). The youngest child living with them was an 8 year old Mabel, born Ripe, Sussex.

I don't have subscription access to FindMyPast so I can't see the detail of the 1921 Census of England & Wales, but from what can be publicly searched there I can see a household recorded in the parish of Mersham, East Ashford that included a Robert Day, (born Lenham c1860), Elizabeth Day, (born Lenham c1860), Frederick Day, (born Lenham c1886), Minnie Day, born Chalvington, Sussex c1894) and Mabel Day, (born Ripe, Sussex c1903). Of course no reason why the Day's didn't leave the picture at the house at Brabourne when they lived there, but seems unlikely Charles was ever resident.

He is not recorded on the Brabourne Roll of Honour. http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Kent/Brabourne.html
or Mersham http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Kent/Mersham.html
but he is remembered at Bonnington: http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Kent/Bonnington.html

Unfortunately like the vast majority his service records did not survive when German bombs hit the London Warehouse where they were being stored in WW2.

The best bet for another image of Charles in order to rule him in or out for the man pictured here. I've tried a quick search for him on the likes of the British Newspaper Archive, a subscription website, but his surname brings up a lot of irrelevant matches regardless of what other criteria I use.

In terms of an alternative candidate, the Legge family were recorded living at Gains Cottage, Brabourne, on the 1911 Census. Father Walter John, (50), was a Head Gamekeeper.  Among the 7 children still at home were an 18 year old Joseph William Legge, (under gamekeeper, born Hye, Kent), Ernest Legge, (13, born Pluckley, Kent) and Arthur Legge, (11, born Waltham, Kent). All were of an aged where they could have served, plus there was another child who was not home on the night of the census.

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

Thanks very much, Peter. Very helpful and detailed information. 

This information ties in with the research that I've done into the Day family. Robert Day died in 1933 and his widow and children then moved into the house in Westenhanger where I now live and where the picture was hanging. The last of the Day family died here in 1981 but a lodger who had also resided here since WW2 inherited the house and all its contents. There are several other items in the house that definitely belong to the Days, so it makes me wonder if this picture could also be something left from their time here. I'm trying to track down other pictures of the Day family but no luck so far. Of the five children born to Robert and Eliza Day, none of them married or had children.

Thanks again for your help.

Kind regards

Nathan 

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Courtesy Findmypast newspapers, Kentish Express and Ashford News 25/11/16

Thank you!

[charlie962]

20 minutes ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

Of the five children born to Robert and Eliza Day, none of them married or had children

Which makes sense for the picture being left behind.

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

Just now, charlie962 said:

Which makes sense for the picture being left behind.

Yes, exactly. There are also monogramed chests in the loft and Robert Day's old spade with his initials on it plus a lot of other stuff that was probably theirs.

[PRC]

11 hours ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

Is the woman likely a sibling or wife? 

I did wonder at first if it might be the mother, but I don't think I can see anything on the womans' ring finger. And while it could be a sweet-heart, again, (too my eyes!) that absense of a ring would to my mind indicate it had not got as far as an engagement.

They seem to have some physical features in common, and as you say none of his siblings married, that would be suggestive that this was one of his unmarried sisters.

What could throw the cat amongst the pigeons is if a newspaper search turned up a death notice \ in memoriam notice in the Births, Marriages and Deaths Column that was placed there by a sweetheart.

Have you dared open the frame to examine the back yet

Cheers,
Peter

[TullochArd]

16 hours ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

Is the woman likely a sibling or wife? 

An observation on the photo. 

My immediate impression on first sight was the curious proportions and clear detachment of the sitters. I have seen instances of period photos of that have been constructed from two images for the benefit of grieving relatives and I suspect this may be the case here. The seated lady and soldiers legs are one component and the soldiers head, arms and torso are another.

Very poignant. 

Thanks for sharing.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, TullochArd said:

An observation on the photo. 

My immediate impression on first sight was the curious proportions and clear detachment of the sitters. I have seen instances of period photos of that have been constructed from two images for the benefit of grieving relatives and I suspect this may be the case here. The seated lady and soldiers legs are one component and the soldiers head, arms and torso are another.

Very poignant. 

Thanks for sharing.

Yes I think you’re right, it’s most notable of all in the improbable positioning of their feet.  He is almost floating above her.  Perhaps a brother and sister so arranged for grieving parents.  The setting does indeed somehow convey a tragedy all of its own.

Edited 11 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Agreed. There was something odd about his legs!

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

5 hours ago, TullochArd said:

An observation on the photo. 

My immediate impression on first sight was the curious proportions and clear detachment of the sitters. I have seen instances of period photos of that have been constructed from two images for the benefit of grieving relatives and I suspect this may be the case here. The seated lady and soldiers legs are one component and the soldiers head, arms and torso are another.

Very poignant. 

Thanks for sharing.

That’s a really interesting thought. They didn’t look like husband / wife to me so wondered about siblings. 

10 hours ago, PRC said:

I did wonder at first if it might be the mother, but I don't think I can see anything on the womans' ring finger. And while it could be a sweet-heart, again, (too my eyes!) that absense of a ring would to my mind indicate it had not got as far as an engagement.

They seem to have some physical features in common, and as you say none of his siblings married, that would be suggestive that this was one of his unmarried sisters.

What could throw the cat amongst the pigeons is if a newspaper search turned up a death notice \ in memoriam notice in the Births, Marriages and Deaths Column that was placed there by a sweetheart.

Have you dared open the frame to examine the back yet

Cheers,
Peter

It’s tricky as the backing paper has fused with the photo itself. Do you think attempt to separate? 

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

21 hours ago, 6RRF said:

The immediate response on the uniform is that he's wearing a 1914 Pattern leather belt, which suggests an early war "Kitchener" volunteer. An enlargement of the shoulder-title on his right shoulder might take us further. Otherwise the best I can offer at this stage is that he probably belonged to a local infantry unit - he doesn't appear to have any connection with horses.

This is as best I can get! 

Also found these in nailed up in the garage! 

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

This is as best I can get! 

Also found these in nailed up in the garage! 

The badges chime with the local regiment, the Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) and are of the relevant WW1 period.  The close up of his shoulder suggests a 3-tier shoulder title of the local Territorial Force (TF) Battalion of the type generally seen in the first two years of the war.

The 5th TF Battalion were known locally as “Ashford’s Own”.

These were the drill halls/stations in 1913:

5TH (TF) Bn

HQ - DRILL HALL, NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

A COY - CAUSTON RD, CRANBROOK

B COY - HAWKHURST

C COY - STAPLEHURST

D COY - HORSMONDEN

E COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

F COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

G COY - EAST CROSS, TENTERDEN + CHURCH LANE, LYDD

H COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

Edited 11 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

25 minutes ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

............ It’s tricky as the backing paper has fused with the photo itself. Do you think attempt to separate? 

I'd be tempted to leave it. 

The badges and photo combined tell a lost story from 100 years ago which 50 years ago would have been simply consigned to landfill. 

Personally I'd keep everything together ........ and I'd keep hunting around!

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

Also have his death penny. 

6 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I'd be tempted to leave it. 

The badges and photo combined tell a lost story from 100 years ago which 50 years ago would have been simply consigned to landfill. 

Personally I'd keep everything together ........ and I'd keep hunting around!

I’ll definitely be keeping it all - I’ll probably put it up on display once the house has been renovated!

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The badges chime with the local regiment, the Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) and are of the relevant WW1 period.  The close up of his shoulder suggests a 3-tier shoulder title of the local Territorial Force (TF) Battalion generally seen in the first two years of the war.

The 5th TF Battalion were known locally as “Ashford’s Own”.

These were the drill halls in 1913:

5TH (TF) Bn

HQ - DRILL HALL, NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

A COY - CAUSTON RD, CRANBROOK

B COY - HAWKHURST

C COY - STAPLEHURST

D COY - HORSMONDEN

E COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

F COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

G COY - EAST CROSS, TENTERDEN + CHURCH LANE, LYDD

H COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

That’s brilliant- thank you. I know the actual service records were destroyed in WW2 but does anything exist locally that might say which company he was in? 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

Also have his death penny. 

It’s a very poignant collection to have.  I agree with TullochArd that keeping it all together and as protected as possible seems the right thing to do.

[Nathan Dylan Goodwin]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The badges chime with the local regiment, the Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) and are of the relevant WW1 period.  The close up of his shoulder suggests a 3-tier shoulder title of the local Territorial Force (TF) Battalion generally seen in the first two years of the war.

The 5th TF Battalion were known locally as “Ashford’s Own”.

These were the drill halls in 1913:

5TH (TF) Bn

HQ - DRILL HALL, NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

A COY - CAUSTON RD, CRANBROOK

B COY - HAWKHURST

C COY - STAPLEHURST

D COY - HORSMONDEN

E COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

F COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

G COY - EAST CROSS, TENTERDEN + CHURCH LANE, LYDD

H COY - NEW TOWN RD, ASHFORD

Would these badges have been on his epaulettes?

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

Would these badges have been on his epaulettes?

The letters, yes.  The other badge is for his cap.

Edited 11 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

That’s brilliant- thank you. I know the actual service records were destroyed in WW2 but does anything exist locally that might say which company he was in? 

If he served with the TF before the war as opposed to enlisting during it then “muster rolls” often exist at the local regional library and in the National Archives.  These would show his company if he did serve before 1914.  It would be usual to attend the company closest to his home address.

Edited 11 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

52 minutes ago, Nathan Dylan Goodwin said:

That’s brilliant- thank you. I know the actual service records were destroyed in WW2 but does anything exist locally that might say which company he was in? 

If we believe the picture shows a member of the Territorial Force then it may be another member of the family - Charles died serving with the 7th Battalion which was not a Territorial Force unit. His Medal Index Card shows him landing in France on the 26th July 1915 - our parent site the Long, Long Trail has the 7th Battalion landing at Le Havre on the 27th. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-queens-own-royal-west-kent-regiment/

So 26th July could have been the day they embarked, he could have been part of an advance party, or, more unlikely, it is a co-incidence and he was part of a draft going elsewhere. However even that last possibility throws up issues - at that time it would be most likely he would be going as a draft to one of the Territorial Battalions of the Regiment serving overseas, but both the 1/4th and 1/5th Battalions were in India at that time, and the 2/4th had yet to sail for Gallipoli. The men of the 1/4th and 1/5th Battalion would not have qualified for the 1914/15 Star and Charles Day did.

Should G/1769, (and MiC also has GS/1769) turn out to be a TF number, and I don't think it will, then I suspect very unlikely to be pre-war. Given how short the pre-war Territorial Force was on manpower, it would seem unlikely the 5th Battalion had got up to its 1 thousand, seven hundred and sixy-ninth recruit prior to the war.

As @6RRF has already observed, there is much about him that is suggestive of an early wartime Kitchener Army volunteer and that would fit perfectly with what can quickly be deduced about the service career of Charles Day.

Next steps I'd suggest would be for someone with access to Ancestry to check his Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll for units served with overseas in case somehow he managed to fit in a stint with the 4th or 5th Battalion.
Additionally obtaining details of the amount of his War Gratuity from his entry in the Register of Soldiers, (Ancestry \ Fold 3), so that the clever people on the forum can use the War Gratuity Calculator to work put the four week period in which he enlisted.
After that it's a near service number search - it may be that a batch transferred from one of the Territorial Force Battalions into the 7th. If individuals with nearby service numbers have surviving service records it may be possible to turn up recurring themes \ dates that were likely to have applied to Charles.

One last thought - Charles has no known grave, so seems unlikely the cap badge and shoulder titles were recovered from him. They may have been a spare set that were in his personal belongings when they were returned to the family, or they may have belonged to another family member.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

Peter gives very good advice and I must caveat my suggestion that the photo shows a TF soldier purely on the basis that in the close up photo I think that I can see the shape of a multi-tier shoulder title, like that which I posted for the 5th Battalion.  It might well be that I’m mistaken in what I see on my phone screen.  Others must look to ascertain what they see. 

Edited 11 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE