Scottish Horse Button - what's with the crown?

[Simon127]

Hello all,

I have recently come across this rather nice Scottish Horse Button made by McClymont Dewar & Co. of Glasgow. 

I believe it to be WW1, but am a little confused by the crown design. The crown type appears to be a Queen's Victorian Crown, which appears to be the most common type of crown encountered on badges and buttons to the Scottish Horse. I know that there were buttons and badges made which featured the King's Crown, but the considerable number of buttons and badges featuring the older crown, made me wonder whether it was a tradition for the regiment to sport the older QVC design. I have also found several WW1-era photos showing men wearing the older crown design on their insignia.

Any information would be most welcome.

Best,

Simon

 

[tonydb]

I believe this to be a Scottish Crown.

Regards Tony.

[CorporalPunishment]

7 minutes ago, tonydb said:

I believe this to be a Scottish Crown.

Regards Tony.

Yes, it's the Crown of Scotland. The design is used these days by the Royal Regiment of Scotland.     Pete.

[Simon127]

Thank you, gents. 

The crown of Scotland. Of course. What an ignoramus I feel!

Best wishes,

Simon

[Chasemuseum]

I do not know a great deal about British military badges but have this one.

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

I do not know a great deal about British military badges but have this one.

 

That is the Tudor or Imperial crown that was favoured by the Kings Edward VII, George V and George VI.

The crown on the button posted by the OP is the Scottish Crown as seen on the Royal Regiment of Scotland badge below. 

Edited 30 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Simon127]

It's interesting that both crown designs were used at the same time. I have seen images of uniforms from the GW period sporting both the KC and also the Scottish Crown. I'm pretty sure that the button I originally posted is WW1 period. 

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, Simon127 said:

It's interesting that both crown designs were used at the same time. I have seen images of uniforms from the GW period sporting both the KC and also the Scottish Crown. I'm pretty sure that the button I originally posted is WW1 period. 

Yes I’m intrigued about the Scottish crown in relation to the regiment too, I imagine that there must be a story behind it.  The adoption by the Royal Regiment of Scotland of the crown seemed controversial to me as I don’t know of it being used previously by any of the antecedent regiments.  The RRS was formed by merger during the time in administration of a government that supported and established devolution, and I can’t help wondering if that played a part in the selection of the design chosen.  If there ever is an independent Scotland there would be no need to change the badge unless it became a republic. 

[Glengarry1950]

Hi Frogsmile,

Long time no speak, I hope you are well.

On the Royal Crown of Scotland being on the Royal Regiment of Scotland's Cap badge it came about like everything else to do with the regiments uniform and dress, decided by a committee. Note on how to ID the Royal Crown of Scotland there is what appears to be Whales swimming on the mantels when it is illustrated two on each side.

News Flash, I received my copy of the Military Historical Society Bulletin on Monday where it had an article on King Charles III cypher and what items from medals, cap badges, buttons and other items that would change and adopt the new cypher and what would remain with the ER II of our late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, however, illustrated was the CR III cypher and next to it was the cypher that will be used in Scotland CR III but surmounted by the Royal Crown of Scotland, now that is an interesting on the new Kings Reign, illustrating a move by the Palace, to get one in before the Indy tribe start to complain.

PS Pig will Fly before there is an independent Scotland, just saying.

Warm wishes

Hiram

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Glengarry1950 said:

Hi Frogsmile,

Long time no speak, I hope you are well.

On the Royal Crown of Scotland being on the Royal Regiment of Scotland's Cap badge it came about like everything else to do with the regiments uniform and dress, decided by a committee. Note on how to ID the Royal Crown of Scotland there is what appears to be Whales swimming on the mantels when it is illustrated two on each side.

News Flash, I received my copy of the Military Historical Society Bulletin on Monday where it had an article on King Charles III cypher and what items from medals, cap badges, buttons and other items that would change and adopt the new cypher and what would remain with the ER II of our late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, however, illustrated was the CR III cypher and next to it was the cypher that will be used in Scotland CR III but surmounted by the Royal Crown of Scotland, now that is an interesting on the new Kings Reign, illustrating a move by the Palace, to get one in before the Indy tribe start to complain.

PS Pig will Fly before there is an independent Scotland, just saying.

Warm wishes

Hiram

Hello Hiram, thank you for your interesting reply.  I know what you mean regarding decisions by committee and I’m intrigued by the announcement regarding King Charles and a Scottish cypher, which certainly seems like hedging his bets (a sign of the times we live in).  If there ever is a return to an independent Scotland then I think that they’d do well with a Queen Ann 1st.

As for the Army, it says an awful lot about its current state that it now has a totally ludicrous number of so-called Special Forces units for such a small European military force.  What’s more their cap badges are all without a crown and look like a mixture of insignia from Romans, Greeks and South Africans.  Field Marshal Slim of Burma will be swivelling in his grave.

Edited 16 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Glengarry1950]

Aye you are right the whole idea of this new wing of the Army comes with lots of baggage and new problems to boot, we the KOSB were infused with the RS to form 1 Scots and we believed that there was a golden thread between the new regiment and the old, wrongly as it turns out 16 years down the line, they 1 Scots are now 1st Battalion The Ranger Regiment with a cap badge not unlike the Rhodesian Special Forces 'Selous Scouts' who operated in 1976 hunting terrorists in the bush, who ever thought of that did not know history.

However, I now see in the said Military Historical Society Bulletin 1Scots is now 2nd Battalion Ranger Regiment, this has caused confusion, I have just completed my new book flyer attached which has within its pages a Lineage of the Regiment including the Militia and Volunteer units associated with the regiments right up to the formation of the 1st Bn Ranger Regiment now shown to be 2nd Bn?

Sorry the photo of the flyer is on its side cant right it hopefully some kind fellow will com along and sort it out. Sorted it out my self.

Hiram

 

Edited 16 December , 2022 by Glengarry1950
Picture right way round

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Glengarry1950 said:

Aye you are right the whole idea of this new wing of the Army comes with lots of baggage and new problems to boot, we the KOSB were infused with the RS to form 1 Scots and we believed that there was a golden thread between the new regiment and the old, wrongly as it turns out 16 years down the line, they 1 Scots are now 1st Battalion The Ranger Regiment with a cap badge not unlike the Rhodesian Special Forces 'Selous Scouts' who operated in 1976 hunting terrorists in the bush, who ever thought of that did not know history.

However, I now see in the said Military Historical Society Bulletin 1Scots is now 2nd Battalion Ranger Regiment, this has caused confusion, I have just completed my new book flyer attached which has within its pages a Lineage of the Regiment including the Militia and Volunteer units associated with the regiments right up to the formation of the 1st Bn Ranger Regiment now shown to be 2nd Bn?

Sorry the photo of the flyer is on its side cant right it hopefully some kind fellow will com along and sort it out.

Hiram

I fear I’ve taken this too far away from WW1, Hiram, and need to ask a kind admin to move this latter section of the thread to Skindles.

What has happened to the RRS turns my stomach because it’s not been done openly and honestly.  As one of my last jobs was recruiting I knew that the writing had been on the wall for some time.  RRS hasn’t been able to recruit properly for decades.  It was a situation not unlike after the Peninsula War of the early 1800s when many highland regiments were converted to ordinary line because they could not recruit.  Instead, this time they’ve converted to a supposed new concept to sweeten the bitter pill.  Making 1st SCOTS the 2nd Battalion Rangers instead of 1st Battalion suggests though that they’ve abandoned any attempt at golden threads of lineage (given that Royal Scots was 1st of Foot).  It should mean too that the other RRS battalions will lose their secondary titles, as they will now be meaningless if the ‘Royal Scots Borderers’ designation is to disappear.  See also: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmdfence/576/576vw.pdf

As for the Rangers themselves this seems to me to be connected with the creation of a three tier regular army with the units the government expects to use regularly in the 1st tier (SAS/SBS plus enabler units), a 2nd tier of influencers and trainers, who will receive substantial investment from government (The Rangers) and a 3rd Tier that will be little used, comparatively starved of investment, but expected to feed personnel into the upper tiers (the remainder of the infantry, armour, artillery and other support units).  The only saving grace is that all this was planned before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, which should be causing some head scratching and something of a rethink.  

Edited 16 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Glengarry1950]

I did not answer your reply straight away as I was waiting on it being moved to Skindles! 

There appears to some confusion, as it is only in the MHS Bulletin that illustrates by Divisions with the Ranger Regiment Battalion assigned at the foot of each Regular Army Division with Guards and Para's as 1st = 1st Bn Ranger Regiment, RRS = 2nd Bn Ranger Regiment, etc, However, since its inception in November 2021 all notifications and correspondence we have with 1 Scots (Royal Scots Borderers) RRS is to 1st Battalion Ranger Regiment so in light of this some investigation is required. 

On the golden thread we from the KOSB Regimental Museum had loaned out well over 400 items from the regimental collection to furnish the Officers and WO & Sgt's Messes of 1Scots, items including regimental silver, historical painting etc this maintained a link or what was referred to as the Golden Thread. Now that 1Scots no longer exist we are in the process of recovering our regimental property, fortunately we have ex King's Own Scottish Borderers in key posts at this present time which does helps in this process, but it is a sad state of affairs.

Hiram

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 17/12/2022 at 19:35, Glengarry1950 said:

I did not answer your reply straight away as I was waiting on it being moved to Skindles! 

There appears to some confusion, as it is only in the MHS Bulletin that illustrates by Divisions with the Ranger Regiment Battalion assigned at the foot of each Regular Army Division with Guards and Para's as 1st = 1st Bn Ranger Regiment, RRS = 2nd Bn Ranger Regiment, etc, However, since its inception in November 2021 all notifications and correspondence we have with 1 Scots (Royal Scots Borderers) RRS is to 1st Battalion Ranger Regiment so in light of this some investigation is required. 

On the golden thread we from the KOSB Regimental Museum had loaned out well over 400 items from the regimental collection to furnish the Officers and WO & Sgt's Messes of 1Scots, items including regimental silver, historical painting etc this maintained a link or what was referred to as the Golden Thread. Now that 1Scots no longer exist we are in the process of recovering our regimental property, fortunately we have ex King's Own Scottish Borderers in key posts at this present time which does helps in this process, but it is a sad state of affairs.

Hiram

 

Thanks Hiram, I’m not sure why it’s not been moved, but no matter, what you’ve explained is quite illuminating to me.  The high command have obviously decided to stovepipe the Ranger battalion’s (that are smaller, but made up from a far greater proportion of SNCOs and so cost neutral for the MOD) by linking them with specific parts of the infantry.  There’s strength in unity as you know, and the Foot Guards are now the only infantry left with 5-regular battalions.  The Parachute Regiment tagging on also fits, as it continues the relationship from the old Pathfinder Company.

A big part of the rationale behind this is to make a full career more attractive.  Looking at the infantry as a whole there’s no arms plot move of units every few years (as you and I experienced) to make life more interesting, nor are there constant operational tours to keep the cutting edge honed (nor does the government want them, with their optics of returning body bags). Another aspect is that opportunities for Late Entry (LE) commissions (i.e. raising officers from the ranks) have plummeted following the profound reduction in battalions.  That has been a worry for general staff and to in part make up for that, but also to emulate the US and Dominions, the range of ‘command sergeant major’ and ‘corps sergeant major’ [senior warrant officer] posts has been substantially expanded.  A number of former Staff Officer grade 3 (SO3) posts are now converted to these warrant officer roles in areas of logistics and administration.

The overall picture then, is of young men and women enlisting into Tier 3 and then as ever, wastage wittling them away, with just the hard core seeking a full career plodding along at relatively mundane regimental duty at their unit’s permanent base. From them the cream will be skimmed off and up into the Tier 2 (Rangers), via a selection process and with concomitant opportunities for accelerated promotion that were once the province of only the Small Arms School Corps and [now Royal] Army Physical Training Corps. From there some will go on to Tier 1 (Special Forces) and a few the higher levels of warrant officer mentioned.  From the latter will come a substantially smaller and much more exclusive band of Late Entry commissioned officers, but just as in Victorian times, they will be older.  This latter aspect a result of the ‘flexible (i.e. extendable) career’ system that has operated for a few years now and is leading to WOs and LE officers in selected posts extending service well into their 50s.  It is a very different army to the one we remember.

 I think that the KOSB are quite right to request their property back.  The Royal Scots and KOSB have been very shabbily treated, but so to be fair have the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, who despite being fully recruited to sustain two regular battalions, and having been promised decades before a relatively protected status because they’d been the first to truly embrace the then ‘large regiment’ concept, had one battalion perfunctorily sacrificed on the altar of political expedience, in order to placate Scottish lobbyists, many of them keen on destroying the U.K.

I know that I consider myself privileged to have served during the era that I did and I’ll always have fond memories of the Scottish soldiers with whom I served alongside, and the very many Burns Nights I attended with the haggis piped in as I looked along the table at the rows of scarlet and tartan, bearing insignia with the crown of HM Queen Elizabeth II (God bless her).  Happy days.  It’s a sobering exercise to look at the insignia of current infantry regiments and reflect on the overall proportion of battalions when compared with our time.  An army without mass is comparatively useless for war fighting, but from a political viewpoint seemingly adequate for flood rescue and strike breaking.  Also, just as FM Slim intimated back in WW2, who would want to be an Infantry commanding officer with all your best men creamed off into specialist units?

Edited 22 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[healdav]

My son came from Holland to see us yesterday. He works as a director of a company that markets technology platforms (whatever they are).

The subject of Ukraine came up and he revealed that he has Ukrainian staff still in the country (some have left the country). He said that last week he had a work on-line conference with some of them while they were in a bomb shelter.

During the night one of them works in an ammunition factory and the other as he put it, spends the night hunting. He's a sniper.

And the company's contribution is to create software and hardware for the targeting of artillery by drone reconnaissance - which is obviously why my son was talking to the staff.

As they said in the French Revolutionary Wars, the one thing that the powers that attacked France forgot (it had never happened before, so there was an excuse), that bankrupt governments can't fight wars, but a bankrupt government backed by the people can and does.

[Interested]

Thanks for the insight, learning something new every day.