Help with identification please

[Billy Robertson]

Hi. Thanks for allowing me to join the forum. I was hoping someone could help identify the uniform and rank of one of my great uncles (I'm not sure which one as there were several brothers from the same family who served). I have tried to identify the cap badge without success. It also looks like his epaulettes have two pips. Would greatly appreciate a steer in the right direction. 

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Billy Robertson said:

Hi. Thanks for allowing me to join the forum. I was hoping someone could help identify the uniform and rank of one of my great uncles (I'm not sure which one as there were several brothers from the same family who served). I have tried to identify the cap badge without success. It also looks like his epaulettes have two pips. Would greatly appreciate a steer in the right direction. 

He is a private soldier of Princess Victoria’s (Royal Irish Fusiliers).  The two pips that you see are the two part shoulder titles worn by soldiers of the regular and war raised battalions of fusilier regiments.  That regiment was one of a few that had two parts to their cap and collar badges to reflect their twin lineage.  The 1st Battalion had previously been the 87th (Prince of Wales’s) Fusiliers and the 2nd Battalion the 89th (Princess Victoria’s).  Thus the top part of the badge was Princess Victoria’s coronet and the lower part a fusilier grenade with the Prince of Wales’s feathers and an Irish Harp. It was the county regiment for Armagh, Monaghan and Cavan, with its depot at Gough Barracks in Armagh.  The regiment took great pride in its forebear’s (87th’s) capture of a Napoleonic Eagle at the Battle of Barossa, whose image it featured on regimental buttons, collar badges, and later patterns of shoulder title (which with typical Irish humour it irreverently nicknamed ‘Quails’).

Edited 19 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Billy Robertson]

Brilliant. Thanks very much for the speedy response and the information. I'm puzzled as to why my great uncle, a Glaswegian from Bridgeton would join the Royal Irish Fusiliers, when there were so many Scottish regiments in the area. Excuse my ignorance, but would the Royal Irish Fusiliers have recruited in the Glasgow area, or was it just a case of you went where you were told?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Billy Robertson said:

Brilliant. Thanks very much for the speedy response and the information. I'm puzzled as to why my great uncle, a Glaswegian from Bridgeton would join the Royal Irish Fusiliers, when there were so many Scottish regiments in the area. Excuse my ignorance, but would the Royal Irish Fusiliers have recruited in the Glasgow area, or was it just a case of you went where you were told?

In July 1881 each regiment had allocated to it its own specific recruiting areas when the regiments were given names instead of the numbers that they had had previously.  However, it wasn’t really until WW1 that that system took true effect and previously most recruits had come from large cities all over Britain and Ireland, where army recruitment was generally more successful.  Prewar the men who asked to join their local regiment usually did so, especially if they had friends, or family connections, but men with no ties were often sent by the recruiting sergeant to those units that they knew were particularly in need of men based upon regularly published lists.

Thus when the war started most battalions were a mix of local men and men from anywhere else in the then United Kingdom.  Some battalions had many local men and others had few, depending upon their individual circumstances.

Once the effects of mass casualties began to be felt between 1914-1916, the recruiting and training system struggled to cope, and by late 1916 it was increasingly the case that on a needs must basis men who arrived in drafts of reinforcements at infantry base depots in France (to receive some acclimatisation), were subsequently sent on to whichever unit(s) had the most urgent need for men.

By 1917 the Irish Regiments had a particular problem because there was no conscription in Ireland and the numbers of volunteers had dropped markedly for a range of reasons.  As a result men from other parts of the then U.K. were increasingly sent as part of the mix of reinforcements to Irish units.

Glasgow was one of the populous cities that sent a disproportionate number of it’s citizens to British infantry regiments of all types, and not just its local regiments, the Highland Light Infantry, and the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles).  Even kilted, highland regiments, sourced many of its soldiers from Glasgow.

Edited 19 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Billy Robertson]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Each regiment had allocated to it its own specific recruiting areas in July 1881 when the regiments were given names instead of the numbers they had previously.  However, it wasn’t really until WW1 that that system took true effect and previously most recruits had come from large cities where army recruitment was more successful.  Prewar the men who asked to join their local regiment usually did so, especially if they had friends or family connections, but men with no ties were often sent by the recruiting sergeant to those units that they knew were particularly in need based upon regularly published lists.  Thus when the war started most battalions were a mix of local men and men from anywhere else in the then United Kingdom.  Some battalions had many local men and others had few.
Once the effects of mass casualties began to be felt between 1914-1916 the recruiting system struggled to cope and by late 1916 it was increasingly the case that on a needs must basis men who arrived in drafts of reinforcements at infantry base depots in France (to receive some acclimatisation), were sent to whichever unit(s) had the most urgent need.  By 1917 the Irish Regiments had a particular problem because there was no conscription in Ireland and the numbers of volunteers had dropped markedly for a range of reasons.  As a result men from other parts of the then U.K. were increasingly sent as part of the mix of reinforcements to Irish units.

Glasgow was one of the populous cities that sent a disproportionate number of it’s citizens to British infantry regiments of all types, and not just its local regiments, the Highland Light Infantry, and the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles).  Even kilted, highland regiments, sourced many of its soldiers from Glasgow.

Fascinating. Thanks again. That should be enough information to help me try and track down which one of my great uncles it was. Really appreciate your help. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Billy Robertson said:

Fascinating. Thanks again. That should be enough information to help me try and track down which one of my great uncles it was. Really appreciate your help. 

He looks quite young in the photo.  Men from Glasgow certainly joined some of the regiments’ that recruited predominantly in the North of Ireland, where over centuries many Ulster Scots had settled and embedded their cultural and religious traditions.  The Royal Irish Fusiliers was one of these, although it also recruited men from the South too.  Certainly recruiting sergeants in Glasgow were sending young men across on the Ferry to Belfast to join regiments whose HQ and depot was there.  Think of Rangers fans and you’ll have grasped where they were coming from.

 I wonder if he joined early on, or was a conscripted enlistment later in the war?

Edited 19 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Billy Robertson]

Once I find out more information, I'll keep you posted. Probably just sheer coincidence, but it turns out the family are predominantly bluenoses!! 😂😂👍

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Billy Robertson said:

Probably just sheer coincidence, but it turns out the family are predominantly bluenoses!! 😂😂👍

 

Well fancy that 🤔

P.S. I’ll be interested to learn of your findings.

[Billy Robertson]

Will keep you posted. Cheers. 👍

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Billy Robertson said:

Will keep you posted. Cheers. 👍

I forgot to mention that he’s holding a swagger stick.  Traditionally each soldier was required to carry a swagger stick when ‘walking-out’ from barracks, or camp.

Unlike officers civilian clothes were not permitted for soldiers and so their uniform was specially checked for smartness before they left the unit ‘lines’ (so-called because barracks accommodation or tents were laid out in lines).  This was to maintain a unit’s reputation for good discipline.

Swagger sticks were to give an air of smartness and occupy the soldier’s hands.  They were not issued at public expense, but purchased at a heavily subsidised rate via profits from the canteen. Good quality examples had a nickel silver end embossed with regimental crests.

Edited 19 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Billy Robertson]

Good stuff. The funny thing is, I happened to stumble upon 'Bargain Hunt' on TV the other day and one of the items attracting the attention of the team, was an old swagger stick. I'd never heard of it before, but here I now am, hearing about it twice in a matter of days. 

One final question. Is the lanyard he is wearing through his epaulette, of any significance? Would that normally have been attached to a holstered pistol or was it more of a ceremonial thing for the photo?

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, Billy Robertson said:

Good stuff. The funny thing is, I happened to stumble upon 'Bargain Hunt' on TV the other day and one of the items attracting the attention of the team, was an old swagger stick. I'd never heard of it before, but here I now am, hearing about it twice in a matter of days. 

One final question. Is the lanyard he is wearing through his epaulette, of any significance? Would that normally have been attached to a holstered pistol or was it more of a ceremonial thing for the photo?

The lanyard was issued to every soldier along with an army clasp knife (folding blades) and each soldier was supposed to keep it in his top left breast pocket.  Many soldiers shortened the lanyard by plaiting it. 

Edited 19 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

The group of four you posted, Frog, looks like it could be a father and three sons? Difficult to think of another reason for such a group.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, PhilB said:

The group of four you posted, Frog, looks like it could be a father and three sons? Difficult to think of another reason for such a group.

Yes it is Phil.  The father was the Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry so hence his First Class tunic with extra gold lace on collar and cuffs.  One son a drummer and the other two with service companies, although one looks like a boy entrant.  I’ve often wondered what happened to them all as the photo was around 1910 I think.

Edited 20 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Billy Robertson]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The lanyard was issued to every soldier along with an army clasp knife (folding blades) and each soldier was supposed to keep it in his top left breast pocket.  Many soldiers shortened the lanyard by plaiting it. 

Another mystery solved. Thanks again. Will keep you posted as to my findings. 👍

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Billy Robertson said:

 

I’ll be especially interested to learn as it’s a fine photo.  He seems quite young and yet is very well turned out, suggesting he already has some service in.  It makes me wonder if he might have joined as a regular. 

Edited 20 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Billy Robertson]

Hi Frogsmile. I have been able to learn that the gentleman in the photo is my grand uncle John Wilson. He did indeed join Princess Victoria’s Royal Irish Fusiliers on 04 March 1915 in Armagh, but later transferred to the Machine Gun Corps in May 1916. I have managed to get a copy of his service record which I'm still trying to decipher as it's in pretty poor condition. Here's a copy of one of the pages which clearly shows his correct home address as Bridgeton in Glasgow. The only thing that puzzles me, is why he signed up in Armagh. There must be an Irish connection that I need to explore further. In the meantime, thanks again for all your help. 

[Billy Robertson]

Another piece from his service record...

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Billy Robertson said:

Hi Frogsmile. I have been able to learn that the gentleman in the photo is my grand uncle John Wilson. He did indeed join Princess Victoria’s Royal Irish Fusiliers on 04 March 1915 in Armagh, but later transferred to the Machine Gun Corps in May 1916. I have managed to get a copy of his service record which I'm still trying to decipher as it's in pretty poor condition. Here's a copy of one of the pages which clearly shows his correct home address as Bridgeton in Glasgow. The only thing that puzzles me, is why he signed up in Armagh. There must be an Irish connection that I need to explore further. In the meantime, thanks again for all your help. 

Thank you for referring back Billy.  If he enlisted in Armagh, which was the town where the depot and headquarters of the Royal Irish Fusiliers was located (Gough Barracks), then it suggests that he took the ferry across specifically to join up (enlist) there.

Other than that the only other scenario I can imagine is that for some reason he was already working there, perhaps in the Linen Industry, which was a big employer (like mining once was in Glasgow), but then decided to enlist.

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Billy Robertson]

That's a possibility too, which I'll try to find out more about. 👍

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Billy Robertson said:

Another piece from his service record...

This suggests that he was probably in the Machine Gun Section of his battalion Billy.  These sections were brigaded (joined together) from the 4 sections (one each of 4 battalions) within an infantry brigade, in order that they could be more efficiently organised (an economy of scale) under a major who was the brigade machine gun officer.  The 4 sections thus became a Machine Gun Company.  This was taken a stage further when the Machine Gun Corps was formed in 1916 and all the existing Machine Gun Companies were absorbed within it and most of the men rebadged (a few opted to stay with their parent regiments and returned to them).  The Machine Gun Companies were numbered in accordance with their Brigade and so we know that your forebear was in the MG Company supporting the 31st Infantry Brigade.  It seems that his original battalion was either the 5th or 6th Royal Irish Fusiliers, as they were both in the 31st Infantry Brigade at that time. 

31st Company, Machine Gun Corps

The 31st Machine Gun Company was formed from the Machine Gun Sections of 31st Brigade, 10th (Irish) Division on the 11th May 1916 at Basingstoke.

They served in Salonika, on the 7th and 8th of December 1619 they were in action at Kosturino, in the retreat from Serbia. Some units of the Division were in action at the Karajakois and Yenikoi in late September and early October.

The company sailed from Salonika to Egypt in early September 1917, concentrating near Rafa to prepare for the Palestine Campaign. On the 7th of May 1918 they joined with the other Machine Gun Companies of the Division to form the 10th Machine Gun Battalion.  See:

1.https://www.machine-gun-corps-database.co.uk/intro_page.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The record shows:

Transferred Machine Gun Corps 12/5/16
31st Coy. posted 12/5/16 M.E.F. (Mediterranean Expeditionary Force)

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Billy Robertson said:

That's a possibility too, which I'll try to find out more about. 👍

One aspect that particularly interests me is that he enlisted via a Central Political Recruitment Agency (see stamp at top of his papers) which suggests that he was politically active (although that is not a given) and was specifically sent across from Glasgow to Armagh to join the infantry.  See: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/recruitment-by-political-recruitment-agencies/

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The record shows:

Transferred Machine Gun Corps 12/5/16
31st Coy. posted 12/5/16 M.E.F. (Mediterranean Expeditionary Force)

There’s something else very odd underneath that’s only partially legible:

List HG2228 Patagonia(?) adm St David H, Malta, ex Ghain Luffalia Camp (?)

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s something else very odd underneath that’s only partially legible:

List HG2228 Patagonia(?) adm St David, off Malta, ex Ghain Luffalia (?)

I think it might be a hospital admission record.

From the website Scarlet Finders: http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/190.html

STEADY EXPANSION OF HOSPITALS, JULY TO SEPTEMBER, 1915.

Opening of St. David’s Hospital
     The first of the new hospitals was St. David’s, splendidly situated close to St. Paul’s and All Saints’ on rocky ground sloping down to the sea. The site had already been used for a camp, but extensive work had to be carried out by the Royal Engineers, such as the fixing and concreting of tent pegs for the large hospital marquees, the construction of the main roads, paths, and gardens; the surface drainage of the camp, the building of the kitchens, ablution places, baths, and stores. After a period of very hard work, the ground being exceedingly uneven and rocky, the hospital was ready to receive nearly 500 patients towards the end of July; in August it was fully equipped for 1,000 beds. The cases received were at first mild surgical and convalescents; but like all other hospitals St. David’s was soon busy with the ever increasing stream of dysentery and enteric.
 

Edited 12 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE