Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 I am trying to find out when my distant cousin Allen Smith joined this battalion. His service number was 70992 and he was KiA on 24th November 1916. He had previous swerved in the Leicestershire Regiment, service number 27085. His service records did not survive, so any information on when he joined up with the Leicestershire Regiment would also be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 (edited) Martyn, PtecScotney of the Leicesters, no 24132 was transferred to 9th Sherwoods at Base Depot in France 6/10/16 (edited) and acquired new number 70995. Charlie Edited 17 November , 2022 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Charlie. Thanks for that! Do you know which battalion of the Leicester's Pte Scotney was transferred from? Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Wright, Leicesters 24096 Trfd to 9th Sherwoods 6/10/16 renumbered 70998 Both Scotney and Wright were 12th Leicesters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Note Scotney and Wright both trfd 6/10/16 (not 16/10 as I first wrote in error) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Here, courtesy Findmypast, is extract of Wright's record: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Both Scotney and Wright went to BEF base depot about the same date 14/9/16. Given Smith only has a 3pound war grat he too had less than a year's service when he died so probably has same sort of pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 (edited) Bailey, Leicesters 27086, has an attestation date to 12th bn Leicesters 4/4/16. So Smith 27085 attested at about same date. Edited 17 November , 2022 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 So Attest 12th Leicesters 4/4/16. LongLongTrail says: 12th (Reserve) Battalion Formed at Leicester in March 1916 as a reserve battalion. Moved to Newcastle area in July 1916. 1 September 1916 : converted into 83rd Training Reserve Battalion of 19th Reserve Brigade. Possible trf to 3rd Bn just before posting to BEF. 12th Infantry Base Depot, France, c13/9/16. Transferred to 9th Sherwoods 6/10/16. Killed in action 24/11/16. All very short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Thanks for all that -Yes, he didn't have long did he. Presumably all the soldiers you have detailed were drafted to the 9th at the same time seeing the service numbers are so close. At least I will have some details to pass onto my Aunt who is 86 who only had a vague memory from childhood of a missing cousin who was mentioned at times who had been lost on the War. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Martyn James said: Thanks for all that -Yes, he didn't have long did he. Presumably all the soldiers you have detailed were drafted to the 9th at the same time seeing the service numbers are so close. At least I will have some details to pass onto my Aunt who is 86 who only had a vague memory from childhood of a missing cousin who was mentioned at times who had been lost on the War. Martyn You can show her his badges. Edited 17 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2022 2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: You can show her his badges. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 (edited) Some war diary links for you. At Nat Archives, free to download if you register. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14017458 Or starting here on Ancestry (need a sub). https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43112_1813_0-00147?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=ef783d90369fce3ae33a2a8f6b3e8288&pId=516451 Note that on 8/10/16 some 364 Other Rank reinforcements arrived including 80 ex Leicestershire's. He will have been amongst them. The next 6 weeks spent training and rebuilding the Battalion. Finally into the Trenches 21/11/16. A large working party on the 24th Nov, digging out a new trench in front of the 1st Line were caught in a German bombardment, north of Beaumont Hamel station, and one officer and 8 ORs were killed. I suggest Allen Smith was one of these. So perhaps just 3 days service in the trenches before he died? Charlie Edited 17 November , 2022 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Thanks again for this.....3 days! I actually also accessed the War Diary via Ancestry 5 mins ago and seen that entry. I was in the area of Beaumont Hamel on my last visit to France on 2017, but was unaware of this guys existence then as hadn't started my family research. Now will add his name to the list I need to visit on my next trip, that makes 5 relatives, only 2 with known graves. Just shows the effect on one family doesn't it. Anyway, thanks again for your research and help. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 (edited) Here is part of the Order for that fateful working party ( courtesy Ancestry and National Archives) Can one of our clever mappers like @WhiteStarLine make sense? Edited 17 November , 2022 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2022 I will have a lot to tell my Aunt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Martyn James said: Thanks again for this.....3 days! I actually also accessed the War Diary via Ancestry 5 mins ago and seen that entry. I was in the area of Beaumont Hamel on my last visit to France on 2017, but was unaware of this guys existence then as hadn't started my family research. Now will add his name to the list I need to visit on my next trip, that makes 5 relatives, only 2 with known graves. Just shows the effect on one family doesn't it. Anyway, thanks again for your research and help. Martyn He drew a short straw in being selected for that work party. Wrong time and wrong place. It exemplifies the arbitrary nature of whether a man survives or not in war of that scale and duration, but generally the longer they’re in the frontline, the shorter ‘luck’ becomes. Edited 17 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Yes, he really was unlucky wasn't he..... At least he has a marked grave although I see the family didn't add anything to the gravestone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 November , 2022 Share Posted 17 November , 2022 2 minutes ago, Martyn James said: Yes, he really was unlucky wasn't he..... At least he has a marked grave although I see the family didn't add anything to the gravestone.... Perhaps they were too grief stricken, or not particularly religious. For some families such inscriptions must have seemed a moot point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 17 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2022 Or simply cound not afford it.... From what my Auntie remembers the family were not very clear what had happened to him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 15 hours ago, charlie962 said: Here is part of the Order for that fateful working party ( courtesy Ancestry and National Archives) Here is a 27 November 1916 trench map (click to enlarge). It shows the Bois d'Hollande (wood) on the right and the three yellow pins are, from left-to-right, the post, the forked road and the new trench. Underneath is an aerial photo giving some idea of what it looked like at the time. Enlarging the aerial to its maximum (bottom image) appears to show the line they were digging - the middle pin is very close to the forked road mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 2 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said: Underneath is an aerial photo giving some idea of what it looked like at the tim Thank you for that excellent reply. Those aerial photos show just how bleak and battered that area was. It takes a while to understand what we are looking at.... I'll look again later. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 Ok. So the Station is in fact well south east of Beaumont Hamel, which makes Beaucourt north of the station, thus fitting the description. It was a large working party, 100 men from each company if I've read diary correctly, so surprising there weren't more casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 I note cwgc have 12 men of the 9th bn died that day, incl 2 who are on the Thiepval memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/search-results/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn James Posted 18 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2022 The wonders of the Internet. I now have a area I can really zone into on my next visit. My only regret is my Uncle - A. Smith's first cousin and a 2nd World War Vet died last year and I won't be able to share all this with him. Anyway, thank you all again folks. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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