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Unknown Regiment and patches


caladonia
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The "Tiger" patch was for the 1st Hampshire, the 2nd had a black and yellow square vertically bisected according to "Infantry Divisions, Identification Schemes,1917" Guy Hibbard. Unless things changed after 1917.

2ndhamps.jpg

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9 minutes ago, EDWARD1 said:

The "Tiger" patch was for the 1st Hampshire, the 2nd had a black and yellow square vertically bisected according to "Infantry Divisions, Identification Schemes,1917" Guy Hibbard. Unless things changed after 1917.

2ndhamps.jpg

That’s intriguing.  I suppose it must have changed given that it was 2nd Hampshires in Russia.  Either that or Hibbard inadvertently had them the wrong way around.

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Hello Edward1

Yes, things seem to have changed, presumably after Nov 1918, I have saved photos of the 2nd , see earlier post, and the 1/9th (Cyclist) Battalions) Battalion Hamps, which also served in Russia, wearing the Star patch and below it the tiger patch. 

This photo is from the IWM.

William

Officer 1-9th Battalion (Cyclists) Hampshire Regiment Russia 1919.jpg

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9 minutes ago, caladonia said:

Hello Edward1

Yes, things seem to have changed, presumably after Nov 1918, I have saved photos of the 2nd , see earlier post, and the 1/9th (Cyclist) Battalions) Battalion Hamps, which also served in Russia, wearing the Star patch and below it the tiger patch. 

This photo is from the IWM.

William

Officer 1-9th Battalion (Cyclists) Hampshire Regiment Russia 1919.jpg

It’s interesting and I’m not convinced that the battalions did change the badge around, as the Tiger was specifically a 67th Foot and thus 2nd Battalion association.  Forum member @poona guardmight be able to advise.  

E39C25B5-3D83-4394-8720-A63ECA70954D.jpeg

BF0A7CA0-5682-41B6-825E-4DB857F5EEE1.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hello Frogsmile

I've had a look through my copies of the various recently paublished books on patches and all of them agree that the Tiger patch was worn by the 1st Hamps, adopted 1/8/1917. The 2nd Hamps wore the 29th Div, red triangle on both sleeves, and the yellow/black square diamond was  worn on the back of the jacket, in different orientations to indicate the company.

It seems that after the fighting ended on the Western Front, all the remaining Battalions of the Hampshires adopted the Tiger patch?

William

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4 minutes ago, caladonia said:

Hello Frogsmile

I've had a look through my copies of the various recently paublished books on patches and all of them agree that the Tiger patch was worn by the 1st Hamps, adopted 1/8/1917. The 2nd Hamps wore the 29th Div, red triangle on both sleeves, and the yellow/black square diamond was  worn on the back of the jacket, in different orientations to indicate the company.

It seems that after the fighting ended on the Western Front, all the remaining Battalions of the Hampshires adopted the Tiger patch?

William

Thank you William, it does seem an odd thing for the 1st Battalion to have done given the clear and strong 67th association.  It makes sense that the Tiger became the standard device after the war, and it remained so thereafter. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 08/11/2022 at 02:12, caladonia said:

Hello

wrightdw, and thanks for your interesting post, I don't suppose you know which battalion the SLI "volunteers" came from?

Another  thing I've just noticed from the oringinal photo- is it not odd, given the date and circumstances of his servece that he has no overseas service stripes?

William

Hi William,

I don't know which Bn the SLI volunteers came from however I do have the names of the five SLI officers, you may be able to determine which Bn they came from?

Lieut. W.A.N. Thatcher

Lieut. K.E. King

Lieut. J.W. Harper

2nd Lieut. E.S.S. Smith

2nd Lieut. D.C.J. Constable

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Hello wrightdw

Thank you for your reply.

I have done a quick goggle search , and at least three of the officers, Constable, Harper and King, all served in the 1st Batt, Som LI, so prsumably the others and the OR "volunteers" all came from this battalion?

William

 

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1 hour ago, caladonia said:

Hello wrightdw

Thank you for your reply.

I have done a quick goggle search , and at least three of the officers, Constable, Harper and King, all served in the 1st Batt, Som LI, so prsumably the others and the OR "volunteers" all came from this battalion?

William

 

Hi William,

Your theory carries some weight as the only Military Medal gazetted to SLI for North Russia was to a 1st Bn man:

WHISTON, 7556, Sjt. C.B.W., M.M., 1st Bn., Som. L.I. ([E] Peshawar, India) (NORTH RUSSIA [ARCHANGEL]) (London Gazette, 3rd January 1920) “…for bravery in the Field with the British Forces in North Russia.”

It doesn't say 'attached 1st Bn., OBLI' but this is not uncommon for solders attached to both 1OBLI and 2HAMPSHIRE, sometimes awards were gazetted as 'attached' and others just as the parent regiment.

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Hello again wrightdw

I've done a bit more digging and have found a list of officers of the 1st Som LI in the National Archives.

All of the officers, except DCJ Constable, are named, and dispite giving a brief  resume of their service, there is no mention of Russia.

Hope ypu find this of interest.

William

 

 

 

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On 07/11/2022 at 16:22, caladonia said:

Hello Edward1

Yes, things seem to have changed, presumably after Nov 1918, I have saved photos of the 2nd , see earlier post, and the 1/9th (Cyclist) Battalions) Battalion Hamps, which also served in Russia, wearing the Star patch and below it the tiger patch. 

This photo is from the IWM.

William

Officer 1-9th Battalion (Cyclists) Hampshire Regiment Russia 1919.jpg

I may be mistaken but I would say the photograph is Monty Moore VC.

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On 07/11/2022 at 18:19, caladonia said:

Hello Frogsmile

I've had a look through my copies of the various recently paublished books on patches and all of them agree that the Tiger patch was worn by the 1st Hamps, adopted 1/8/1917. The 2nd Hamps wore the 29th Div, red triangle on both sleeves, and the yellow/black square diamond was  worn on the back of the jacket, in different orientations to indicate the company.

It seems that after the fighting ended on the Western Front, all the remaining Battalions of the Hampshires adopted the Tiger patch?

William

There were two versions of the 'Tiger' cloth patch. From 28 March 1916 until 31 July 1917 1/Hampshire wore a yellow cotton 2-inch square on both sleeves. On 1 August 1917 (Minden Day), 1/Hampshire adopted the outline of a tiger in yellow on a dark khaki background of 2.5 inches by 1.5 inches. All features - claws, eyes, mouth etc were in black cotton.

As 2/Hampshire was a composite multi-regimental battalion, original titled '1st Composite Battalion' I suspect that the Tiger cloth patch was adopted as a means of battalion identification. The battalion-headquarters and X (Hampshire) Company included Hampshire Captains Berkeley, Edwards, Flint (Adjutant), May, Mclvor, Smythe and Spencer-Smith and Lts. Cotten, Gorman and M.S. Moore VC. Major Baxter was second in command. So a cross-section of officers with significant war-time service in 1/Hampshire, 2/Hampshire and 15/Hampshire.

N.B. The Tigers badge lives on today as it was adopted by the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment when the Queen's Regiment and Royal Hampshire's amalgamated in 1992 to become the PWRR.

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Hello Marc

Thank you for the additional info on the Hampshire insignia, as to the identity of the officer, I don't think its's Monty Moore VC. He served with 2nd Batt, I think?  The officer pictured is captioned as being with 1/9th (Cyclist) Batt.

William

 

 

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Hi William,

Do you know what the IWM photograph Q reference number is for this image?

Marc

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Sorry Marc

I had saved this photo from a forgotten web site several years ago, and have no info about it except the caption and IWM stamp on it.

I did a quick search on the IWM site, but as you may know, its a bit of a nightmare if your looking for a specific item!

William

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On 16/11/2022 at 00:04, Marc Thompson said:

There were two versions of the 'Tiger' cloth patch. From 28 March 1916 until 31 July 1917 1/Hampshire wore a yellow cotton 2-inch square on both sleeves. On 1 August 1917 (Minden Day), 1/Hampshire adopted the outline of a tiger in yellow on a dark khaki background of 2.5 inches by 1.5 inches. All features - claws, eyes, mouth etc were in black cotton.

As 2/Hampshire was a composite multi-regimental battalion, original titled '1st Composite Battalion' I suspect that the Tiger cloth patch was adopted as a means of battalion identification. The battalion-headquarters and X (Hampshire) Company included Hampshire Captains Berkeley, Edwards, Flint (Adjutant), May, Mclvor, Smythe and Spencer-Smith and Lts. Cotten, Gorman and M.S. Moore VC. Major Baxter was second in command. So a cross-section of officers with significant war-time service in 1/Hampshire, 2/Hampshire and 15/Hampshire.

N.B. The Tigers badge lives on today as it was adopted by the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment when the Queen's Regiment and Royal Hampshire's amalgamated in 1992 to become the PWRR.

Hello Marc, thank you for the explanation.  I suppose that time had passed sufficiently for 1st Hants to no longer see the Tiger as something belonging to the 2nd Battalion (ex 67th), but more as a ‘regimental’ device.  Also it’s undeniable that from a fighting attitude viewpoint a Tiger icon is attractive to any regiment.  I do recall the PWRR adopting the Tiger badge on uniform, although they did not do so immediately upon formation, but a little later.  

With the Tiger device in mind I’ve always felt a little sorry for the old Royal Leicestershire Regiment soldiers and officers, for whom the ‘Bengal Tiger’ and ‘Hindustan’ scroll was their singular icon, not only for headdress, but also buttons.  Their nickname had also been the ‘Royal Tigers’ if I recall correctly, and yet when merged into the Royal Anglian Regiment (having first been moved from Forester Brigade** insignia to East Anglian Brigade insignia), and becoming 4th Battalion the Royal Anglian Regiment, they were soon after reduced to company strength.  Their Tiger identity subsequently all but disappeared, with just a button being belatedly adopted by the Royal Anglians as a last vestige after ‘Tiger Company’ was finally disbanded.

**originally ‘Midland Brigade’.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hello Marc

I've been doing a bit of searching for the web site photo I posted and unfortunatly hav'nt found the site but have managed to find it along with others from the same album on the IWM site. The IWM No is Q9583.

None of the Hampshire Regt photos identify the Batt, although one shows the grave of Sergeant J Batten, of 2nd Batt. See this post

So I suppose the others could show this Batt rather than the 1/9th as mentioned on the wbsite.

William

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Thanks William for your time and effort in locating the reference to the album in the IWM collection. This contains a number of unattributed images for the Northern Russian Expedition.

Marc

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