Help with epaulette ribbon needed

[Graham Anstey]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum so hopefully I'm following the correct etiquette. The attached photo is of my grandfather (Cyril Hindle Law) who was a (second) Lieutenant in the East Lancashire Regiment - 1/4th Battlaion from what I can work out. I'm intrigued by what appears to be a coloured ribbon on the outer end of each epaulette. In my head it is red, but could be any colour. I've done some searching but not really knowing what I'm looking for I came up with nothing that seemed relevant. I did find images of a red ribbon (as represents medals) that indicating infantry, but the webpage didn't have any more information, and appeared to be for Canadian Forces. The photo title says 1910s, but it could have been just after the war as he is wearing this uniform in his wedding photo of 1919.

Any help would be much appreciated, and I expect I'll have many more questions going forward as my interest and research so far has been on WWII, so I've lots of new stuff to learn.

Many thanks

Graham

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum.

Medal index card attached, courtesy of Ancestry.co.uk

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Graham Anstey said:

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum so hopefully I'm following the correct etiquette. The attached photo is of my grandfather (Cyril Hindle Law) who was a (second) Lieutenant in the East Lancashire Regiment - 1/4th Battlaion from what I can work out. I'm intrigued by what appears to be a coloured ribbon on the outer end of each epaulette. In my head it is red, but could be any colour. I've done some searching but not really knowing what I'm looking for I came up with nothing that seemed relevant. I did find images of a red ribbon (as represents medals) that indicating infantry, but the webpage didn't have any more information, and appeared to be for Canadian Forces. The photo title says 1910s, but it could have been just after the war as he is wearing this uniform in his wedding photo of 1919.

Any help would be much appreciated, and I expect I'll have many more questions going forward as my interest and research so far has been on WWII, so I've lots of new stuff to learn.

Many thanks

Graham

On the balance of probabilities it is most likely to be a divisional shoulder strap flash.  Several New Army Divisions favoured these in different (primary) colours for all ranks.  Knowing positively which battalion of the East Lancashire Regiment he served with will enable the division to be identified and that possibility to be pursued and checked.

I do not yet have the reference work covering Territorial Force battalions such as the 1/4th (it’s on my wants list), but it’s author @poona guardmight well be able to provide the answer.

Edited 29 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Graham Anstey]

Many thanks Michelle. I have the card, and am steadily working my way through the war diaries on Ancestry. I'd be interested to know the meaning of the bit of the address side of the card. On the face of it he approved his own Territorial Force ribbon. Surely this can't be right. There were no other C.H. Laws in the Regiment, although there was a Major Law.

Thanks Frogsmile. According to the UK Army List 1918 on Ancestry he was in the "4th Battalion (Territorial) East Lancashire Regiment" that was part of the 126th Brigade, 42nd Division. The 42nd insignia was a black & white diamond.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Graham Anstey said:

Many thanks Michelle. I have the card, and am steadily working my way through the war diaries on Ancestry. I'd be interested to know the meaning of the bit of the address side of the card. On the face of it he approved his own Territorial Force ribbon. Surely this can't be right. There were no other C.H. Laws in the Regiment, although there was a Major Law.

Thanks Frogsmile. According to the UK Army List 1918 on Ancestry he was in the "4th Battalion (Territorial) East Lancashire Regiment" that was part of the 126th Brigade, 42nd Division. The 42nd insignia was a black & white diamond.

Yes I’m aware of the details of the Divisional sign, which some divisions rendered in cloth as an arm badge, but not always.  As mentioned some divisions used additionally or instead, a coloured cloth flash on the shoulder strap as per your photograph.  David Bilton (Poona Guard) will almost certainly be able to advise if that’s the case.

NB.  In times post-WW1 some infantry battalions occasionally adopted coloured shoulder strap flashes to distinguish its companies, but I don’t think that’s the case here in relation to your photo.

Edited 29 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[KENDO]

Hi,

The 1/4 East Lancs wore a green cloth diamond with a white number 4 in the centre which was worn on both upper sleeves and the steel helmet while serving with 42 (East Lancsahire) Division.

Kendo

 

 

[poona guard]

The battalion used epaulette markers to show the wearers function, signaller, runner, gas, etc. There is no record of the colours used buthe is probably the officer in charge of signals.

I suspect he was a ranker before he was commissioned as his war record is dated 1915-1919.

Poona Guard

Can I please use the photo in volume 3 on the Terriers?

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, poona guard said:

The battalion used epaulette markers to show the wearers function, signaller, runner, gas, etc. There is no record of the colours used buthe is probably the officer in charge of signals.

I suspect he was a ranker before he was commissioned as his war record is dated 1915-1919.

Poona Guard

Can I please use the photo in volume 3 on the Terriers?

 

Thank you Dave, I agree that battalion signals officer would seem to be the most likely in the circumstances that you’ve laid out.  I’m sure that @Graham Ansteywill be pleased to get the details.

Edited 30 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Graham Anstey]

That's really useful information, thanks Poona Guard. AFAICT he doesn't appear by name in the war diaries, so I have no idea what his role might have been. If I ever find out I'll update this thread. What would a battalion signals officer have been responsible for? Were the Corps of Signals just responsible for the infrastructure, and a junior officer responsible for the actual communications? I'm completely guessing here as this is way outside my current field of knowledge.

@poona guard I'm new to this forum, so don't know what "volume 3" relates to. 

Graham

[Matlock1418]

11 hours ago, poona guard said:

The battalion used epaulette markers to show the wearers function, signaller, runner, gas, etc. There is no record of the colours used buthe is probably the officer in charge of signals.

If signals [at battalion level] - Would it be blue cloth or blue cloth slip-on? 

That's my [current] understanding.  [As opposed to the blue and white armbands of the RE Signal Section]

M

Edited 30 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
add

[Matlock1418]

On 29/10/2022 at 15:46, Graham Anstey said:

On the face of it he approved his own Territorial Force ribbon.

From his MIC = I think that is probably he Applied for - in writing then got an EF9 form sent out to him, which he then had to return!

M

[FROGSMILE]

On 30/10/2022 at 21:42, Graham Anstey said:

That's really useful information, thanks Poona Guard. AFAICT he doesn't appear by name in the war diaries, so I have no idea what his role might have been. If I ever find out I'll update this thread. What would a battalion signals officer have been responsible for? Were the Corps of Signals just responsible for the infrastructure, and a junior officer responsible for the actual communications? I'm completely guessing here as this is way outside my current field of knowledge.

@poona guard I'm new to this forum, so don't know what "volume 3" relates to. 

Graham

Each infantry battalion had its own signal section under a junior officer (lieutenant) - the ‘signals officer’, who was assisted by his deputy, a sergeant.  The officer and sergeant attended a special course run by the army before the war, but in divisional or corps schools during the war when demand was exponentially greater.  The two would then be certificated to show that they were qualified to instruct others in the special skills necessary.  At that time the battalion signallers (as they were colloquially known) used signalling skills focused largely in three areas, Semaphore (using flags), Morse (using heliographs, lamps (at night), or wire connected keys) and Field Telephones (using voice, but requiring the hazardous laying of cable from end to end). The individual signallers were trained by their officer and sergeant in peacetime, but during the war new men might attend one of the formation schools dispersed across France and Flanders.

There were also more specialised signallers provided by the Royal Engineers Signal Service, who as well as providing those skills, were increasingly beginning to use early wireless radio transmission for higher formation headquarters.  However, at the fighting end of the Army it was the infantry signallers who were critical to the to and fro of battlefield communication between battalion HQ and the companies.  The signals section was further sub-divided into small detachments, usually of just two, or three men, that were each allocated to the individual companies of the battalion (most commonly  A,B,C,D, but there were variations).  The individual signallers were each generally distinguished by a blue armband (or sometimes shoulder strap flash - see photo), as well as an arm badge of crossed flags in brass or cloth.

There are various detailed threads that will explain your questions:

1. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/281337-signals-how-did-it-work-on-the-front-line-1916/#comment-2994996

 

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Ah, this is what I recall - at least for artillery - blue bands

For "lapels" read epaulettes

M

[poona guard]

They were blue (mostly mid/dark blue) slip-ons but more commonly worn as an armband on the left cuff often with the metal or cloth crossed flags on it. Cracking photos - can I use them in my book on the Terriers please?

Poona Guard

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, poona guard said:

They were blue (mostly mid/dark blue) slip-ons but more commonly worn as an armband on the left cuff often with the metal or cloth crossed flags on it. Cracking photos - can I use them in my book on the Terriers please?

Poona Guard

I think you must mean the photos of @elliot#1so I’ll draw this to his attention, although I know you’re also seeking the permission of @Graham Ansteyfor the initial photo in this thread. 

[Matlock1418]

IIRC There was also another GWF thread on the subject of signallers' identification - I think with a photo/painting of women with blue marking sitting at switchboards - Can't find it again [but then again, would it be relevant here?? - possibly not I guess Edit: then again I think I also recall that it had a male officer depicted with epaulette blue bands - so might be usefull to find that thread]

But blue certainly seemed the colour of choice for signals.

M

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
add further recollections - correct or not!

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

IIRC There was also another GWF thread on the subject of signallers' identification - I think with a photo/painting of women with blue marking sitting at switchboards - Can't find it again [but then again, would it be relevant here?? - probably not I guess]

But blue certainly seemed the colour of choice for signals.

M

That photo of women was QMAAC telephone orderlies (switchboard girls) working for the RE Signals Service and wearing their blue and white armbands.  A slightly different context to the infantry battalion signallers concerned in this thread. 

Edited 31 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That photo of women was QMAAC telephone orderlies (switchboard girls) working for the RE Signals Service and wearing their blue and white armbands.  A slightly different context to the infantry battalion signallers concerned in this thread. 

Ah, my poor recollection [though I still can't find that thread found it:  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/300011-unknown-ww1-womens-uniform-waac/#comment-3148898 interestng never the less] and I had edited above to open things up again - seemingly in error ...  you are right = would not be relevant here.  Sorry folks!

 

M

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
strike and add link

[poona guard]

Thanks, I lose track of the threads at time.

[charlie962]

A few snippets on CH Law.

1.There is a hospital admission on FindmyPast dated c 13/5/17 showing him being evacuated on the Hospital Ship Panama from the 2nd General Hospital. DAH, disorderly action heart. There is a newspaper report 19/5/17 of his hospitalisation due to illness. 

Aged 25, over 1 yrs service, 3 months with Field Force. 

Serving 1/4th East Lancs at the time.

2. Is that a wound stripe I see on his left sleeve? I didn't see his name in caslists but I haven't checked the 1918 NLS lists. 

The photo is presumably dated after wounding but before medal ribbons were issued. 

3. After return to England would he have been sent back to France to same Battalion? Could that shoulder strap marking be on home service?

4. His service record at Kew under 

WO 374/40971 

might answer our questions? 

Charlie

 

 

Edited 31 October , 2022 by charlie962

[Graham Anstey]

Thanks so much everyone for the interesting and useful information. I'd previously searched TNA and ancestry for his personal record, but not found it, so thanks charlie962 for the reference. It's not been digitised yet, so I've added it to my research list for next time I visit. The attached printout shows his rank and battalion in 1918. Would the "Seniority date" be the date he was promoted, or just the date the list was compiled?

@charlie962 which newspaper was that in, and do you have a link to an online copy? That's not something I've found in my various searches over the years. I have newspaper clippings relating to Thomas Keane mentioned in another thread on here, but will add those over there.

Thanks again everyone, I'm learning so much.

Graham

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Graham Anstey
Added note to charlie962

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, Graham Anstey said:

The attached printout shows his rank and battalion in 1918. Would the "Seniority date" be the date he was promoted, or just the date the list was compiled?

Always worth looking at the London Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk - can be a begger to search, so here a couple of hints:

"Cyril Hindle Law" should get his commission to 2nd Lt.

"C H Law" should likely get his promotion to Lt.  etc. and discharge/relinquishment of commission

Use the quotes - should work - I hope! [I'm also off for a look!]

M

Edit: probably spoiling your fun -  here's his commission https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29928/page/1176

Forgot to say best to put in a close date range for publication as a filter and then arrange 'hits' by oldest - this gives [me anyway] a better chance of spotting.

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit

[Graham Anstey]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Always worth looking at the London Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk - can be a begger to search, so here a couple of hints:

"Cyril Hindle Law" should get his commission to 2nd Lt.

"C H Law" should likely get his promotion to Lt.  etc. and discharge/relinquishment of commission

Use the quotes - should work - I hope! [I'm also off for a look!]

M

Fabulous! Thanks Matlock

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, Graham Anstey said:

Fabulous!

I've added a spoiler above and some further tips - you will also have to then search through all the "C H Law" 'hits' - I won't spoil all your fun - enjoy!

M

[Graham Anstey]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

I've added a spoiler above and some further tips - you will also have to then search through all the "C H Law" 'hits' - I won't spoil all your fun - enjoy!

M

 I've had a search. Will need to return to it to check some of my other ancestors at some point. I found his promotion (published 2Feb1917), but the "C H Law"s don't appear to be him as they relate to other regiments. Another bit of info for the file though.